ESA appeal has been launched. Thunderbirds are go.

Discussion in 'UK Tax Credits and Benefits' started by Niteawk, Jun 9, 2009.

  1. Niteawk

    Niteawk Guest

    The clock is ticking, how long will it take from now until I get to
    tribunal.

    A DM might reverse the decision, but I doubt it.

    How long will it take to reinstate ESA pending the appeal.

    What happens if I lose the appeal.

    All the above will be answered in due course.
     
    Niteawk, Jun 9, 2009
    #1
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  2. Niteawk

    Robbie Guest

    Niteawk wrote:
    > The clock is ticking, how long will it take from now until I get to
    > tribunal.
    >
    > A DM might reverse the decision, but I doubt it.
    >
    > How long will it take to reinstate ESA pending the appeal.
    >
    > What happens if I lose the appeal.
    >
    > All the above will be answered in due course.
    >


    You'll end up back on JSA.

    And back on the numpty courses you hate.

    Enjoy!


    --
    Robbie
     
    Robbie, Jun 10, 2009
    #2
    1. Advertisements

  3. Niteawk

    Niteawk Guest

    "Robbie" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > Niteawk wrote:
    >> The clock is ticking, how long will it take from now until I get to
    >> tribunal.
    >>
    >> A DM might reverse the decision, but I doubt it.
    >>
    >> How long will it take to reinstate ESA pending the appeal.
    >>
    >> What happens if I lose the appeal.
    >>
    >> All the above will be answered in due course.
    >>

    >
    > You'll end up back on JSA.
    >
    > And back on the numpty courses you hate.
    >
    > Enjoy!
    >


    By wrongly underscoring my medical assessment, at the very least they
    acknowledged a problem, they cant make you do things that affects you
    health. Of course they will try to ignore the problem and force me back to
    JSA, if I let them get away it. It doesnt look like thats happening, does
    it.
     
    Niteawk, Jun 10, 2009
    #3
  4. Niteawk

    Guest

    On 10 June, 12:22, "Niteawk" <> wrote:
    > "Robbie" <> wrote in message
    >
    > news:...
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > > Niteawk wrote:
    > >> The clock is ticking, how long will it take from now until I get to
    > >> tribunal.

    >
    > >> A DM might reverse the decision, but I doubt it.

    >
    > >> How long will it take to reinstate ESA pending the appeal.

    >
    > >> What happens if I lose the appeal.

    >
    > >> All the above will be answered in due course.

    >
    > > You'll end up back on JSA.

    >
    > > And back on the numpty courses you hate.

    >
    > > Enjoy!

    >
    > By wrongly underscoring my medical assessment, at the very least they
    > acknowledged a problem, they cant make you do things that affects you
    > health. Of course they will try to ignore the problem and force me back to
    > JSA, if I let them get away it. It doesnt look like thats happening, does
    > it.- Hide quoted text -
    >
    > - Show quoted text -


    An appeal decision can go either way. Or can agree with the score
    given.
    Be nice if tribunals stuck to the facts but seen too many decisions
    that were based on a different reality. Including directions to
    contact a dead man, directions to use alternative methods of
    calculating distance and so on.

    Martin <><
     
    , Jun 10, 2009
    #4
  5. Niteawk

    Niteawk Guest

    <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > On 10 June, 12:22, "Niteawk" <> wrote:
    >> "Robbie" <> wrote in message
    >>
    >> news:...
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >> > Niteawk wrote:
    >> >> The clock is ticking, how long will it take from now until I get to
    >> >> tribunal.

    >>
    >> >> A DM might reverse the decision, but I doubt it.

    >>
    >> >> How long will it take to reinstate ESA pending the appeal.

    >>
    >> >> What happens if I lose the appeal.

    >>
    >> >> All the above will be answered in due course.

    >>
    >> > You'll end up back on JSA.

    >>
    >> > And back on the numpty courses you hate.

    >>
    >> > Enjoy!

    >>
    >> By wrongly underscoring my medical assessment, at the very least they
    >> acknowledged a problem, they cant make you do things that affects you
    >> health. Of course they will try to ignore the problem and force me back
    >> to
    >> JSA, if I let them get away it. It doesnt look like thats happening, does
    >> it.- Hide quoted text -
    >>
    >> - Show quoted text -

    >
    > An appeal decision can go either way. Or can agree with the score
    > given.
    > Be nice if tribunals stuck to the facts but seen too many decisions
    > that were based on a different reality. Including directions to
    > contact a dead man, directions to use alternative methods of
    > calculating distance and so on.


    You can appeal against a decision made by a tribunal. There are several
    stages, an appeal is only the first stage in the process. Going to the HOL,
    the European court, judicial review, the commissioner, who ever the hell
    s/he is, the Secretary of State. The court of human rights. I forget what
    order you go in, but my legal advise will know. That should help the
    government, me keeping all those people in highly paid jobs, they might give
    me an award for services to industry, its a wonderful system ;)
     
    Niteawk, Jun 11, 2009
    #5
  6. Niteawk

    Robbie Guest

    Niteawk wrote:
    >
    > <> wrote in message
    > news:...
    >> On 10 June, 12:22, "Niteawk" <> wrote:
    >>> "Robbie" <> wrote in message
    >>>
    >>> news:...
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>
    >>> > Niteawk wrote:
    >>> >> The clock is ticking, how long will it take from now until I get to
    >>> >> tribunal.
    >>>
    >>> >> A DM might reverse the decision, but I doubt it.
    >>>
    >>> >> How long will it take to reinstate ESA pending the appeal.
    >>>
    >>> >> What happens if I lose the appeal.
    >>>
    >>> >> All the above will be answered in due course.
    >>>
    >>> > You'll end up back on JSA.
    >>>
    >>> > And back on the numpty courses you hate.
    >>>
    >>> > Enjoy!
    >>>
    >>> By wrongly underscoring my medical assessment, at the very least they
    >>> acknowledged a problem, they cant make you do things that affects you
    >>> health. Of course they will try to ignore the problem and force me
    >>> back to
    >>> JSA, if I let them get away it. It doesnt look like thats happening,
    >>> does
    >>> it.- Hide quoted text -
    >>>
    >>> - Show quoted text -

    >>
    >> An appeal decision can go either way. Or can agree with the score
    >> given.
    >> Be nice if tribunals stuck to the facts but seen too many decisions
    >> that were based on a different reality. Including directions to
    >> contact a dead man, directions to use alternative methods of
    >> calculating distance and so on.

    >
    > You can appeal against a decision made by a tribunal. There are several
    > stages, an appeal is only the first stage in the process. Going to the
    > HOL, the European court, judicial review, the commissioner, who ever the
    > hell s/he is, the Secretary of State. The court of human rights. I
    > forget what order you go in, but my legal advise will know. That should
    > help the government, me keeping all those people in highly paid jobs,
    > they might give me an award for services to industry, its a wonderful
    > system ;)


    The ability to continue to claim ESA while persuing an appeal stops at
    the first stage of the appeals process - that is the Tribunal stage, now
    commonly referred to as the First Tier stage. After that there is a
    second tier of appeals to what used to be the Commissioner, now the
    Upper Tribunal, that may only be made on a point of law and not simply
    because you think you should have had more points. You can't ask for a
    judicial review or appeal to anywhere else if your appeal is going
    through the proper channels. The Upper Tribunal may refer the case back
    to a lower tribunal if necessary which would add yet more delay.

    It may be a wonderful system but if you fail at the Tribunal / First
    Tier stage you won't get another penny of ESA - not so wonderful for you
    then nor the year long wait for the next stage to be heard, if it gets
    that far. And no, they don't have to give you anything to live on before
    you state otherwise. You would have no choice but to either starve or
    claim JSA but remember that you can also have that refused if you say
    your health problems prevent you from working at all. Though by then you
    could use the services of the Shaw Trust as you will probably meet their
    criteria for accessing their services. Though as they are a not for
    profit organisation they would probably not appreciate time wasters who
    are more concerned with living a life on benefits than actually doing
    something constructive.

    You'll have to do a few more baccy runs to get money to live on if you
    lose the appeal...

    --
    Robbie
     
    Robbie, Jun 11, 2009
    #6
  7. Niteawk

    Guest

    On 11 June, 16:11, "Niteawk" <> wrote:
    > "Robbie" <> wrote in message
    >
    > news:...
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > > Niteawk wrote:

    >
    > >> <> wrote in message
    > >>news:...
    > >>> On 10 June, 12:22, "Niteawk" <> wrote:
    > >>>> "Robbie" <> wrote in message

    >
    > >>>>news:...

    >
    > >>>> > Niteawk wrote:
    > >>>> >> The clock is ticking, how long will it take from now until I get to
    > >>>> >> tribunal.

    >
    > >>>> >> A DM might reverse the decision, but I doubt it.

    >
    > >>>> >> How long will it take to reinstate ESA pending the appeal.

    >
    > >>>> >> What happens if I lose the appeal.

    >
    > >>>> >> All the above will be answered in due course.

    >
    > >>>> > You'll end up back on JSA.

    >
    > >>>> > And back on the numpty courses you hate.

    >
    > >>>> > Enjoy!

    >
    > >>>> By wrongly underscoring my medical assessment, at the very least they
    > >>>> acknowledged a problem, they cant make you do things that affects you
    > >>>> health. Of course they will try to ignore the problem and force me back
    > >>>> to
    > >>>> JSA, if I let them get away it. It doesnt look like thats happening,
    > >>>> does
    > >>>> it.- Hide quoted text -

    >
    > >>>> - Show quoted text -

    >
    > >>> An appeal decision can go either way. Or can agree with the score
    > >>> given.
    > >>> Be nice if tribunals stuck to the facts but seen too many decisions
    > >>> that were based on a different reality. Including directions to
    > >>> contact a dead man, directions to use alternative methods of
    > >>> calculating distance and so on.

    >
    > >> You can appeal against a decision made by a tribunal. There are several
    > >> stages, an appeal is only the first stage in the process. Going to the
    > >> HOL, the European court, judicial review, the commissioner, who ever the
    > >> hell s/he is, the Secretary of State. The court of human rights. I forget
    > >> what order you go in, but my legal advise will know. That should help the
    > >> government, me keeping all those people in highly paid jobs, they might
    > >> give me an award for services to industry, its a wonderful system ;)

    >
    > > The ability to continue to claim ESA while persuing an appeal stops at the
    > > first stage of the appeals process - that is the Tribunal stage, now
    > > commonly referred to as the First Tier stage. After that there is a second
    > > tier of appeals to what used to be the Commissioner, now the Upper
    > > Tribunal, that may only be made on a point of law and not simply because
    > > you think you should have had more points. You can't ask for a judicial
    > > review or appeal to anywhere else if your appeal is going through the
    > > proper channels. The Upper Tribunal may refer the case back to a lower
    > > tribunal if necessary which would add yet more delay.

    >
    > > It may be a wonderful system but if you fail at the Tribunal / First Tier
    > > stage you won't get another penny of ESA - not so wonderful for you then
    > > nor the year long wait for the next stage to be heard, if it gets that
    > > far. And no, they don't have to give you anything to live on before you
    > > state otherwise. You would have no choice but to either starve or claim
    > > JSA but remember that you can also have that refused if you say your
    > > health problems prevent you from working at all. Though by then you could
    > > use the services of the Shaw Trust as you will probably meet their
    > > criteria for accessing their services. Though as they are a not for profit
    > > organisation they would probably not appreciate time wasters who are more
    > > concerned with living a life on benefits than actually doing something
    > > constructive.

    >
    > Bloody hell, you can half paint a grim picture. None of that crap bothers
    > me. If I fail at the first tier I can claim IB while waiting for the second
    > tier, or hardship payment. The bottom line is they cant leave me with no
    > money to live on.
    > Makes you wonder why they have such a convoluted system, doesnt it. Designed
    > to put people off no doubt. They can squirm and wriggle as much as they
    > like, they have to follow the letter of the law.
    >
    >
    >
    > > You'll have to do a few more baccy runs to get money to live on if you
    > > lose the appeal...

    >
    > I suppose I will have to do something like that if they leave me with no
    > money to live on, we will soon find out how far they can go when it comes to
    > threatening someones right to life by starving them to death. Some kid died
    > from starvation recently, the parents were charged with murder. The
    > prosecution maintained that starving the girl to death was no different to
    > someone shooting or strangling her, or beating her to death, the outcome was
    > the same.- Hide quoted text -
    >
    > - Show quoted text -


    Yes, starved several children, of which one died and the others may
    have health problems for years to come. Big story in the local press
    at the time.
    Thats parents choosing to do something - not government refusing to
    give money.

    How can you claim IB?

    Martin <><
     
    , Jun 11, 2009
    #7
  8. Niteawk

    Robbie Guest

    wrote:
    > On 11 June, 16:11, "Niteawk" <> wrote:
    >> "Robbie" <> wrote in message
    >>
    >> news:...
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>> Niteawk wrote:
    >>>> <> wrote in message
    >>>> news:...
    >>>>> On 10 June, 12:22, "Niteawk" <> wrote:
    >>>>>> "Robbie" <> wrote in message
    >>>>>> news:...
    >>>>>>> Niteawk wrote:
    >>>>>>>> The clock is ticking, how long will it take from now until I get to
    >>>>>>>> tribunal.
    >>>>>>>> A DM might reverse the decision, but I doubt it.
    >>>>>>>> How long will it take to reinstate ESA pending the appeal.
    >>>>>>>> What happens if I lose the appeal.
    >>>>>>>> All the above will be answered in due course.
    >>>>>>> You'll end up back on JSA.
    >>>>>>> And back on the numpty courses you hate.
    >>>>>>> Enjoy!
    >>>>>> By wrongly underscoring my medical assessment, at the very least they
    >>>>>> acknowledged a problem, they cant make you do things that affects you
    >>>>>> health. Of course they will try to ignore the problem and force me back
    >>>>>> to
    >>>>>> JSA, if I let them get away it. It doesnt look like thats happening,
    >>>>>> does
    >>>>>> it.- Hide quoted text -
    >>>>>> - Show quoted text -
    >>>>> An appeal decision can go either way. Or can agree with the score
    >>>>> given.
    >>>>> Be nice if tribunals stuck to the facts but seen too many decisions
    >>>>> that were based on a different reality. Including directions to
    >>>>> contact a dead man, directions to use alternative methods of
    >>>>> calculating distance and so on.
    >>>> You can appeal against a decision made by a tribunal. There are several
    >>>> stages, an appeal is only the first stage in the process. Going to the
    >>>> HOL, the European court, judicial review, the commissioner, who ever the
    >>>> hell s/he is, the Secretary of State. The court of human rights. I forget
    >>>> what order you go in, but my legal advise will know. That should help the
    >>>> government, me keeping all those people in highly paid jobs, they might
    >>>> give me an award for services to industry, its a wonderful system ;)
    >>> The ability to continue to claim ESA while persuing an appeal stops at the
    >>> first stage of the appeals process - that is the Tribunal stage, now
    >>> commonly referred to as the First Tier stage. After that there is a second
    >>> tier of appeals to what used to be the Commissioner, now the Upper
    >>> Tribunal, that may only be made on a point of law and not simply because
    >>> you think you should have had more points. You can't ask for a judicial
    >>> review or appeal to anywhere else if your appeal is going through the
    >>> proper channels. The Upper Tribunal may refer the case back to a lower
    >>> tribunal if necessary which would add yet more delay.
    >>> It may be a wonderful system but if you fail at the Tribunal / First Tier
    >>> stage you won't get another penny of ESA - not so wonderful for you then
    >>> nor the year long wait for the next stage to be heard, if it gets that
    >>> far. And no, they don't have to give you anything to live on before you
    >>> state otherwise. You would have no choice but to either starve or claim
    >>> JSA but remember that you can also have that refused if you say your
    >>> health problems prevent you from working at all. Though by then you could
    >>> use the services of the Shaw Trust as you will probably meet their
    >>> criteria for accessing their services. Though as they are a not for profit
    >>> organisation they would probably not appreciate time wasters who are more
    >>> concerned with living a life on benefits than actually doing something
    >>> constructive.

    >> Bloody hell, you can half paint a grim picture. None of that crap bothers
    >> me. If I fail at the first tier I can claim IB while waiting for the second
    >> tier, or hardship payment. The bottom line is they cant leave me with no
    >> money to live on.
    >> Makes you wonder why they have such a convoluted system, doesnt it. Designed
    >> to put people off no doubt. They can squirm and wriggle as much as they
    >> like, they have to follow the letter of the law.
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>> You'll have to do a few more baccy runs to get money to live on if you
    >>> lose the appeal...

    >> I suppose I will have to do something like that if they leave me with no
    >> money to live on, we will soon find out how far they can go when it comes to
    >> threatening someones right to life by starving them to death. Some kid died
    >> from starvation recently, the parents were charged with murder. The
    >> prosecution maintained that starving the girl to death was no different to
    >> someone shooting or strangling her, or beating her to death, the outcome was
    >> the same.- Hide quoted text -
    >>
    >> - Show quoted text -

    >
    > Yes, starved several children, of which one died and the others may
    > have health problems for years to come. Big story in the local press
    > at the time.
    > Thats parents choosing to do something - not government refusing to
    > give money.
    >
    > How can you claim IB?
    >
    > Martin <><


    He can't - it was replaced by ESA and even then he wouldn't have
    qualified as it was contributions based. I think Niteawk means IS -
    Income Support - but that isn't available to someone in his circumstances.

    --
    Robbie
     
    Robbie, Jun 11, 2009
    #8
  9. Niteawk

    Robbie Guest

    Niteawk wrote:
    >
    > "Robbie" <> wrote in message
    > news:...
    >> Niteawk wrote:
    >>>
    >>> <> wrote in message
    >>> news:...
    >>>> On 10 June, 12:22, "Niteawk" <> wrote:
    >>>>> "Robbie" <> wrote in message
    >>>>>
    >>>>> news:...
    >>>>>
    >>>>>
    >>>>>
    >>>>>
    >>>>>
    >>>>> > Niteawk wrote:
    >>>>> >> The clock is ticking, how long will it take from now until I get to
    >>>>> >> tribunal.
    >>>>>
    >>>>> >> A DM might reverse the decision, but I doubt it.
    >>>>>
    >>>>> >> How long will it take to reinstate ESA pending the appeal.
    >>>>>
    >>>>> >> What happens if I lose the appeal.
    >>>>>
    >>>>> >> All the above will be answered in due course.
    >>>>>
    >>>>> > You'll end up back on JSA.
    >>>>>
    >>>>> > And back on the numpty courses you hate.
    >>>>>
    >>>>> > Enjoy!
    >>>>>
    >>>>> By wrongly underscoring my medical assessment, at the very least they
    >>>>> acknowledged a problem, they cant make you do things that affects you
    >>>>> health. Of course they will try to ignore the problem and force me
    >>>>> back to
    >>>>> JSA, if I let them get away it. It doesnt look like thats
    >>>>> happening, does
    >>>>> it.- Hide quoted text -
    >>>>>
    >>>>> - Show quoted text -
    >>>>
    >>>> An appeal decision can go either way. Or can agree with the score
    >>>> given.
    >>>> Be nice if tribunals stuck to the facts but seen too many decisions
    >>>> that were based on a different reality. Including directions to
    >>>> contact a dead man, directions to use alternative methods of
    >>>> calculating distance and so on.
    >>>
    >>> You can appeal against a decision made by a tribunal. There are
    >>> several stages, an appeal is only the first stage in the process.
    >>> Going to the HOL, the European court, judicial review, the
    >>> commissioner, who ever the hell s/he is, the Secretary of State. The
    >>> court of human rights. I forget what order you go in, but my legal
    >>> advise will know. That should help the government, me keeping all
    >>> those people in highly paid jobs, they might give me an award for
    >>> services to industry, its a wonderful system ;)

    >>
    >> The ability to continue to claim ESA while persuing an appeal stops at
    >> the first stage of the appeals process - that is the Tribunal stage,
    >> now commonly referred to as the First Tier stage. After that there is
    >> a second tier of appeals to what used to be the Commissioner, now the
    >> Upper Tribunal, that may only be made on a point of law and not simply
    >> because you think you should have had more points. You can't ask for a
    >> judicial review or appeal to anywhere else if your appeal is going
    >> through the proper channels. The Upper Tribunal may refer the case
    >> back to a lower tribunal if necessary which would add yet more delay.
    >>
    >> It may be a wonderful system but if you fail at the Tribunal / First
    >> Tier stage you won't get another penny of ESA - not so wonderful for
    >> you then nor the year long wait for the next stage to be heard, if it
    >> gets that far. And no, they don't have to give you anything to live on
    >> before you state otherwise. You would have no choice but to either
    >> starve or claim JSA but remember that you can also have that refused
    >> if you say your health problems prevent you from working at all.
    >> Though by then you could use the services of the Shaw Trust as you
    >> will probably meet their criteria for accessing their services. Though
    >> as they are a not for profit organisation they would probably not
    >> appreciate time wasters who are more concerned with living a life on
    >> benefits than actually doing something constructive.

    >
    > Bloody hell, you can half paint a grim picture.


    Just balancing up the over optimistic picture you were painting!

    None of that crap bothers me. If I fail at the first tier I can claim
    IB while waiting for
    > the second tier, or hardship payment.


    IB has been abolished although you wouldn't have qualified for it
    anyway. The only hardship payment available to you is when you claim
    JSA. There is no equivalent under ESA. There is a Crisis Loan but you
    don't qualify for a Crisis Loan if you are unable to repay the money you
    are loaned.

    The bottom line is they cant leave
    > me with no money to live on.
    >


    Oh yes they can. And it happens more frequently than what you think.

    Makes you wonder why they have such a convoluted system, doesnt it.
    > Designed to put people off no doubt. They can squirm and wriggle as much
    > as they like, they have to follow the letter of the law.


    Which lays down circumstances when they can and can't pay benefit. You
    have to follow the law too which determines when these circumstances arise.


    >
    >
    >>
    >> You'll have to do a few more baccy runs to get money to live on if you
    >> lose the appeal...
    >>

    >
    > I suppose I will have to do something like that if they leave me with no
    > money to live on


    as if you weren't doing them anyway. You've already admitted you do them.

    , we will soon find out how far they can go when it
    > comes to threatening someones right to life by starving them to death.
    > Some kid died from starvation recently, the parents were charged with
    > murder. The prosecution maintained that starving the girl to death was
    > no different to someone shooting or strangling her, or beating her to
    > death, the outcome was the same.


    The kid had no say in the matter. You do.
    --
    Robbie
     
    Robbie, Jun 11, 2009
    #9
  10. Niteawk

    Niteawk Guest

    <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > On 11 June, 16:11, "Niteawk" <> wrote:
    >> "Robbie" <> wrote in message
    >>
    >> news:...
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >> > Niteawk wrote:

    >>
    >> >> <> wrote in message
    >> >>news:...
    >> >>> On 10 June, 12:22, "Niteawk" <> wrote:
    >> >>>> "Robbie" <> wrote in message

    >>
    >> >>>>news:...

    >>
    >> >>>> > Niteawk wrote:
    >> >>>> >> The clock is ticking, how long will it take from now until I get
    >> >>>> >> to
    >> >>>> >> tribunal.

    >>
    >> >>>> >> A DM might reverse the decision, but I doubt it.

    >>
    >> >>>> >> How long will it take to reinstate ESA pending the appeal.

    >>
    >> >>>> >> What happens if I lose the appeal.

    >>
    >> >>>> >> All the above will be answered in due course.

    >>
    >> >>>> > You'll end up back on JSA.

    >>
    >> >>>> > And back on the numpty courses you hate.

    >>
    >> >>>> > Enjoy!

    >>
    >> >>>> By wrongly underscoring my medical assessment, at the very least
    >> >>>> they
    >> >>>> acknowledged a problem, they cant make you do things that affects
    >> >>>> you
    >> >>>> health. Of course they will try to ignore the problem and force me
    >> >>>> back
    >> >>>> to
    >> >>>> JSA, if I let them get away it. It doesnt look like thats happening,
    >> >>>> does
    >> >>>> it.- Hide quoted text -

    >>
    >> >>>> - Show quoted text -

    >>
    >> >>> An appeal decision can go either way. Or can agree with the score
    >> >>> given.
    >> >>> Be nice if tribunals stuck to the facts but seen too many decisions
    >> >>> that were based on a different reality. Including directions to
    >> >>> contact a dead man, directions to use alternative methods of
    >> >>> calculating distance and so on.

    >>
    >> >> You can appeal against a decision made by a tribunal. There are
    >> >> several
    >> >> stages, an appeal is only the first stage in the process. Going to the
    >> >> HOL, the European court, judicial review, the commissioner, who ever
    >> >> the
    >> >> hell s/he is, the Secretary of State. The court of human rights. I
    >> >> forget
    >> >> what order you go in, but my legal advise will know. That should help
    >> >> the
    >> >> government, me keeping all those people in highly paid jobs, they
    >> >> might
    >> >> give me an award for services to industry, its a wonderful system ;)

    >>
    >> > The ability to continue to claim ESA while persuing an appeal stops at
    >> > the
    >> > first stage of the appeals process - that is the Tribunal stage, now
    >> > commonly referred to as the First Tier stage. After that there is a
    >> > second
    >> > tier of appeals to what used to be the Commissioner, now the Upper
    >> > Tribunal, that may only be made on a point of law and not simply
    >> > because
    >> > you think you should have had more points. You can't ask for a judicial
    >> > review or appeal to anywhere else if your appeal is going through the
    >> > proper channels. The Upper Tribunal may refer the case back to a lower
    >> > tribunal if necessary which would add yet more delay.

    >>
    >> > It may be a wonderful system but if you fail at the Tribunal / First
    >> > Tier
    >> > stage you won't get another penny of ESA - not so wonderful for you
    >> > then
    >> > nor the year long wait for the next stage to be heard, if it gets that
    >> > far. And no, they don't have to give you anything to live on before you
    >> > state otherwise. You would have no choice but to either starve or claim
    >> > JSA but remember that you can also have that refused if you say your
    >> > health problems prevent you from working at all. Though by then you
    >> > could
    >> > use the services of the Shaw Trust as you will probably meet their
    >> > criteria for accessing their services. Though as they are a not for
    >> > profit
    >> > organisation they would probably not appreciate time wasters who are
    >> > more
    >> > concerned with living a life on benefits than actually doing something
    >> > constructive.

    >>
    >> Bloody hell, you can half paint a grim picture. None of that crap bothers
    >> me. If I fail at the first tier I can claim IB while waiting for the
    >> second
    >> tier, or hardship payment. The bottom line is they cant leave me with no
    >> money to live on.
    >> Makes you wonder why they have such a convoluted system, doesnt it.
    >> Designed
    >> to put people off no doubt. They can squirm and wriggle as much as they
    >> like, they have to follow the letter of the law.
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >> > You'll have to do a few more baccy runs to get money to live on if you
    >> > lose the appeal...

    >>
    >> I suppose I will have to do something like that if they leave me with no
    >> money to live on, we will soon find out how far they can go when it comes
    >> to
    >> threatening someones right to life by starving them to death. Some kid
    >> died
    >> from starvation recently, the parents were charged with murder. The
    >> prosecution maintained that starving the girl to death was no different
    >> to
    >> someone shooting or strangling her, or beating her to death, the outcome
    >> was
    >> the same.- Hide quoted text -
    >>
    >> - Show quoted text -

    >
    > Yes, starved several children, of which one died and the others may
    > have health problems for years to come. Big story in the local press
    > at the time.
    > Thats parents choosing to do something - not government refusing to
    > give money.


    Same difference when you rely on benefit to live.


    >
    > How can you claim IB?
    >


    Cos I B goin down there to gets it. I know what you are thinking, they have
    scrapped IB and replaced it with ESA. Well they still have IB according to
    direct.gov.uk
     
    Niteawk, Jun 11, 2009
    #10
  11. Niteawk

    Robbie Guest

    Niteawk wrote:
    >
    > <> wrote in message
    > news:...
    >> On 11 June, 16:11, "Niteawk" <> wrote:
    >>> "Robbie" <> wrote in message
    >>>
    >>> news:...
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>
    >>> > Niteawk wrote:
    >>>
    >>> >> <> wrote in message
    >>> >>news:...
    >>>
    >>> >>> On 10 June, 12:22, "Niteawk" <> wrote:
    >>> >>>> "Robbie" <> wrote in message
    >>>
    >>> >>>>news:...
    >>>
    >>> >>>> > Niteawk wrote:
    >>> >>>> >> The clock is ticking, how long will it take from now until I
    >>> get >>>> >> to
    >>> >>>> >> tribunal.
    >>>
    >>> >>>> >> A DM might reverse the decision, but I doubt it.
    >>>
    >>> >>>> >> How long will it take to reinstate ESA pending the appeal.
    >>>
    >>> >>>> >> What happens if I lose the appeal.
    >>>
    >>> >>>> >> All the above will be answered in due course.
    >>>
    >>> >>>> > You'll end up back on JSA.
    >>>
    >>> >>>> > And back on the numpty courses you hate.
    >>>
    >>> >>>> > Enjoy!
    >>>
    >>> >>>> By wrongly underscoring my medical assessment, at the very least
    >>> >>>> they
    >>> >>>> acknowledged a problem, they cant make you do things that
    >>> affects >>>> you
    >>> >>>> health. Of course they will try to ignore the problem and force
    >>> me >>>> back
    >>> >>>> to
    >>> >>>> JSA, if I let them get away it. It doesnt look like thats
    >>> happening,
    >>> >>>> does
    >>> >>>> it.- Hide quoted text -
    >>>
    >>> >>>> - Show quoted text -
    >>>
    >>> >>> An appeal decision can go either way. Or can agree with the score
    >>> >>> given.
    >>> >>> Be nice if tribunals stuck to the facts but seen too many decisions
    >>> >>> that were based on a different reality. Including directions to
    >>> >>> contact a dead man, directions to use alternative methods of
    >>> >>> calculating distance and so on.
    >>>
    >>> >> You can appeal against a decision made by a tribunal. There are >>
    >>> several
    >>> >> stages, an appeal is only the first stage in the process. Going to
    >>> the
    >>> >> HOL, the European court, judicial review, the commissioner, who
    >>> ever >> the
    >>> >> hell s/he is, the Secretary of State. The court of human rights. I
    >>> >> forget
    >>> >> what order you go in, but my legal advise will know. That should
    >>> help >> the
    >>> >> government, me keeping all those people in highly paid jobs, they
    >>> >> might
    >>> >> give me an award for services to industry, its a wonderful system ;)
    >>>
    >>> > The ability to continue to claim ESA while persuing an appeal stops
    >>> at > the
    >>> > first stage of the appeals process - that is the Tribunal stage, now
    >>> > commonly referred to as the First Tier stage. After that there is a
    >>> > second
    >>> > tier of appeals to what used to be the Commissioner, now the Upper
    >>> > Tribunal, that may only be made on a point of law and not simply >
    >>> because
    >>> > you think you should have had more points. You can't ask for a
    >>> judicial
    >>> > review or appeal to anywhere else if your appeal is going through the
    >>> > proper channels. The Upper Tribunal may refer the case back to a lower
    >>> > tribunal if necessary which would add yet more delay.
    >>>
    >>> > It may be a wonderful system but if you fail at the Tribunal /
    >>> First > Tier
    >>> > stage you won't get another penny of ESA - not so wonderful for you
    >>> > then
    >>> > nor the year long wait for the next stage to be heard, if it gets that
    >>> > far. And no, they don't have to give you anything to live on before
    >>> you
    >>> > state otherwise. You would have no choice but to either starve or
    >>> claim
    >>> > JSA but remember that you can also have that refused if you say your
    >>> > health problems prevent you from working at all. Though by then you
    >>> > could
    >>> > use the services of the Shaw Trust as you will probably meet their
    >>> > criteria for accessing their services. Though as they are a not for
    >>> > profit
    >>> > organisation they would probably not appreciate time wasters who
    >>> are > more
    >>> > concerned with living a life on benefits than actually doing something
    >>> > constructive.
    >>>
    >>> Bloody hell, you can half paint a grim picture. None of that crap
    >>> bothers
    >>> me. If I fail at the first tier I can claim IB while waiting for the
    >>> second
    >>> tier, or hardship payment. The bottom line is they cant leave me with no
    >>> money to live on.
    >>> Makes you wonder why they have such a convoluted system, doesnt it.
    >>> Designed
    >>> to put people off no doubt. They can squirm and wriggle as much as they
    >>> like, they have to follow the letter of the law.
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>
    >>> > You'll have to do a few more baccy runs to get money to live on if you
    >>> > lose the appeal...
    >>>
    >>> I suppose I will have to do something like that if they leave me with no
    >>> money to live on, we will soon find out how far they can go when it
    >>> comes to
    >>> threatening someones right to life by starving them to death. Some
    >>> kid died
    >>> from starvation recently, the parents were charged with murder. The
    >>> prosecution maintained that starving the girl to death was no
    >>> different to
    >>> someone shooting or strangling her, or beating her to death, the
    >>> outcome was
    >>> the same.- Hide quoted text -
    >>>
    >>> - Show quoted text -

    >>
    >> Yes, starved several children, of which one died and the others may
    >> have health problems for years to come. Big story in the local press
    >> at the time.
    >> Thats parents choosing to do something - not government refusing to
    >> give money.

    >
    > Same difference when you rely on benefit to live.
    >
    >
    >>
    >> How can you claim IB?
    >>

    >
    > Cos I B goin down there to gets it. I know what you are thinking, they
    > have scrapped IB and replaced it with ESA. Well they still have IB
    > according to direct.gov.uk


    Yes, for claims made prior to 27/10/08. Any claim made on or after that
    date is made under the new ESA regime.

    Anyway, at 12 points you aren't that far off the 15 points you need.
    What did you get - 4 lots of 3 points, 2 lots of 6 points, a 9 points
    and a 3 points or one lot of 12 points? (I'm assuming the points were
    all for mental health as I think you linked to a web site for those
    descriptors). Under the All Work Test for IB / IS you would have
    qualified as the points threshold for mental health only (no physical
    health points) points was 10. If you got 10 you were deemed to have got
    15 points and the descriptors were greater in number and a lot easier to
    be scored on. But as I said, hopefully you'll be able to get them to
    tweak one of the point scoring to get them to increase your total by 3
    points.

    As you know what you need to get more points for each descriptor it
    gives you the basis on which to prepare for tribunal. It might help to
    write a short paragraph on what you think you should have got for each
    descriptor and why - it will help you at the tribunal. Though I think
    you said you felt you should have got 60 points, which is asking a lot.
    I assume that is based on 4 descriptors at 15 points for each one?

    --
    Robbie
     
    Robbie, Jun 11, 2009
    #11
  12. Niteawk

    Niteawk Guest

    "Robbie" <> wrote in message

    >> Bloody hell, you can half paint a grim picture.

    >
    > Just balancing up the over optimistic picture you were painting!
    >
    > None of that crap bothers me. If I fail at the first tier I can claim IB
    > while waiting for
    >> the second tier, or hardship payment.

    >
    > IB has been abolished although you wouldn't have qualified for it anyway.
    > The only hardship payment available to you is when you claim JSA. There is
    > no equivalent under ESA. There is a Crisis Loan but you don't qualify for
    > a Crisis Loan if you are unable to repay the money you are loaned.
    >
    > The bottom line is they cant leave
    >> me with no money to live on.
    >>

    >
    > Oh yes they can. And it happens more frequently than what you think.



    We will soon see what happens when I go to appeal.




    >
    > Makes you wonder why they have such a convoluted system, doesnt it.
    >> Designed to put people off no doubt. They can squirm and wriggle as much
    >> as they like, they have to follow the letter of the law.

    >
    > Which lays down circumstances when they can and can't pay benefit. You
    > have to follow the law too which determines when these circumstances
    > arise.
    >


    And whats all this crap about the law saying you are entitled to x amount of
    money to live on? It seems to me that the law is only there as long as it
    suits their purposes, they ignore the law when it applies to claimants. And
    dont try to say they dont do things like that, I have been in that situation
    before with JSA. Although they tried not to, they had to pay up in the end,
    by law that is.



    >>
    >>>
    >>> You'll have to do a few more baccy runs to get money to live on if you
    >>> lose the appeal...
    >>>

    >>
    >> I suppose I will have to do something like that if they leave me with no
    >> money to live on

    >
    > as if you weren't doing them anyway. You've already admitted you do them.
    >
    > , we will soon find out how far they can go when it
    >> comes to threatening someones right to life by starving them to death.
    >> Some kid died from starvation recently, the parents were charged with
    >> murder. The prosecution maintained that starving the girl to death was no
    >> different to someone shooting or strangling her, or beating her to death,
    >> the outcome was the same.

    >
    > The kid had no say in the matter. You do.


    Just an example to show that starving someone to death is classed as murder.
    If I leave someone with no money to buy food, it amounts to the same thing.

    I know this did not happen in this case, but lets suppose it did for a
    minute. What would the prosecution say if the parents of the kid said they
    had no money for food, their ESA was stopped pending the second stage of
    their appeal. Some shit would hit the fan then, wouldnt it. Many heads would
    roll if that was the case, the parents may well walk free from court if they
    could use that as a defence.
     
    Niteawk, Jun 11, 2009
    #12
  13. Niteawk

    Mike Guest

    Niteawk wrote:
    >
    > "Robbie" <> wrote in message
    >
    >>> Bloody hell, you can half paint a grim picture.

    >>
    >> Just balancing up the over optimistic picture you were painting!
    >>
    >> None of that crap bothers me. If I fail at the first tier I can claim
    >> IB while waiting for
    >>> the second tier, or hardship payment.

    >>
    >> IB has been abolished although you wouldn't have qualified for it
    >> anyway. The only hardship payment available to you is when you claim
    >> JSA. There is no equivalent under ESA. There is a Crisis Loan but you
    >> don't qualify for a Crisis Loan if you are unable to repay the money
    >> you are loaned.
    >>
    >> The bottom line is they cant leave
    >>> me with no money to live on.
    >>>

    >>
    >> Oh yes they can. And it happens more frequently than what you think.

    >
    >
    > We will soon see what happens when I go to appeal.


    As the DWP allows itself upto 90 days to send the appeal to the tribunal
    and then they schedule it you may need to think a bit more about your
    'plan'.


    >> Makes you wonder why they have such a convoluted system, doesnt it.
    >>> Designed to put people off no doubt. They can squirm and wriggle as
    >>> much as they like, they have to follow the letter of the law.

    >>
    >> Which lays down circumstances when they can and can't pay benefit. You
    >> have to follow the law too which determines when these circumstances
    >> arise.
    >>

    >
    > And whats all this crap about the law saying you are entitled to x
    > amount of money to live on? It seems to me that the law is only there as
    > long as it suits their purposes, they ignore the law when it applies to
    > claimants. And dont try to say they dont do things like that, I have
    > been in that situation before with JSA. Although they tried not to, they
    > had to pay up in the end, by law that is.


    There are conditions attached and you are entitled to the money provided
    you follow the rest of the rules/ meet the criteria.

    >>>> You'll have to do a few more baccy runs to get money to live on if
    >>>> you lose the appeal...
    >>>>
    >>>
    >>> I suppose I will have to do something like that if they leave me with
    >>> no money to live on

    >>
    >> as if you weren't doing them anyway. You've already admitted you do them.
    >>
    >> , we will soon find out how far they can go when it
    >>> comes to threatening someones right to life by starving them to
    >>> death. Some kid died from starvation recently, the parents were
    >>> charged with murder. The prosecution maintained that starving the
    >>> girl to death was no different to someone shooting or strangling her,
    >>> or beating her to death, the outcome was the same.

    >>
    >> The kid had no say in the matter. You do.

    >
    > Just an example to show that starving someone to death is classed as
    > murder. If I leave someone with no money to buy food, it amounts to the
    > same thing.


    Not at all, unless you lock them up.

    > I know this did not happen in this case,


    So why compare your plight at all??

    > but lets suppose it did for a
    > minute. What would the prosecution say if the parents of the kid said
    > they had no money for food, their ESA was stopped pending the second
    > stage of their appeal. Some shit would hit the fan then, wouldnt it.
    > Many heads would roll if that was the case, the parents may well walk
    > free from court if they could use that as a defence.


    Bullshit - the parents have an alternative to starving their child to
    death 'on principal'. Social services would even step in if they became
    aware of a severely malnourished child. Ultimately if the parents hide
    their child away and starve it to death to 'prove' the DWP are a big
    bunch of meanies they would still be morally and legally responsible for
    it's death. No heads would roll provided social services did not ignore
    it's plight and the DWP followed the law and it's own procedures.

    You really do live in a world of your own niteawk - population: 1. I
    suggest you read a little more and you'll realise just how stupid your
    comparison is:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...-old-girl-starved-to-death-by-her-mother.html

    Mike
     
    Mike, Jun 11, 2009
    #13
  14. Niteawk

    Niteawk Guest

    "Robbie" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > Niteawk wrote:
    >>
    >> <> wrote in message
    >> news:...
    >>> On 11 June, 16:11, "Niteawk" <> wrote:
    >>>> "Robbie" <> wrote in message
    >>>>
    >>>> news:...
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>> > Niteawk wrote:
    >>>>
    >>>> >> <> wrote in message
    >>>> >>news:...
    >>>>
    >>>> >>> On 10 June, 12:22, "Niteawk" <> wrote:
    >>>> >>>> "Robbie" <> wrote in message
    >>>>
    >>>> >>>>news:...
    >>>>
    >>>> >>>> > Niteawk wrote:
    >>>> >>>> >> The clock is ticking, how long will it take from now until I
    >>>> get >>>> >> to
    >>>> >>>> >> tribunal.
    >>>>
    >>>> >>>> >> A DM might reverse the decision, but I doubt it.
    >>>>
    >>>> >>>> >> How long will it take to reinstate ESA pending the appeal.
    >>>>
    >>>> >>>> >> What happens if I lose the appeal.
    >>>>
    >>>> >>>> >> All the above will be answered in due course.
    >>>>
    >>>> >>>> > You'll end up back on JSA.
    >>>>
    >>>> >>>> > And back on the numpty courses you hate.
    >>>>
    >>>> >>>> > Enjoy!
    >>>>
    >>>> >>>> By wrongly underscoring my medical assessment, at the very least
    >>>> >>>> they
    >>>> >>>> acknowledged a problem, they cant make you do things that
    >>>> affects >>>> you
    >>>> >>>> health. Of course they will try to ignore the problem and force
    >>>> me >>>> back
    >>>> >>>> to
    >>>> >>>> JSA, if I let them get away it. It doesnt look like thats
    >>>> happening,
    >>>> >>>> does
    >>>> >>>> it.- Hide quoted text -
    >>>>
    >>>> >>>> - Show quoted text -
    >>>>
    >>>> >>> An appeal decision can go either way. Or can agree with the score
    >>>> >>> given.
    >>>> >>> Be nice if tribunals stuck to the facts but seen too many decisions
    >>>> >>> that were based on a different reality. Including directions to
    >>>> >>> contact a dead man, directions to use alternative methods of
    >>>> >>> calculating distance and so on.
    >>>>
    >>>> >> You can appeal against a decision made by a tribunal. There are >>
    >>>> several
    >>>> >> stages, an appeal is only the first stage in the process. Going to
    >>>> the
    >>>> >> HOL, the European court, judicial review, the commissioner, who
    >>>> ever >> the
    >>>> >> hell s/he is, the Secretary of State. The court of human rights. I
    >>>> >> forget
    >>>> >> what order you go in, but my legal advise will know. That should
    >>>> help >> the
    >>>> >> government, me keeping all those people in highly paid jobs, they
    >>>> >> might
    >>>> >> give me an award for services to industry, its a wonderful system ;)
    >>>>
    >>>> > The ability to continue to claim ESA while persuing an appeal stops
    >>>> at > the
    >>>> > first stage of the appeals process - that is the Tribunal stage, now
    >>>> > commonly referred to as the First Tier stage. After that there is a
    >>>> > second
    >>>> > tier of appeals to what used to be the Commissioner, now the Upper
    >>>> > Tribunal, that may only be made on a point of law and not simply >
    >>>> because
    >>>> > you think you should have had more points. You can't ask for a
    >>>> judicial
    >>>> > review or appeal to anywhere else if your appeal is going through the
    >>>> > proper channels. The Upper Tribunal may refer the case back to a
    >>>> > lower
    >>>> > tribunal if necessary which would add yet more delay.
    >>>>
    >>>> > It may be a wonderful system but if you fail at the Tribunal /
    >>>> First > Tier
    >>>> > stage you won't get another penny of ESA - not so wonderful for you
    >>>> > then
    >>>> > nor the year long wait for the next stage to be heard, if it gets
    >>>> > that
    >>>> > far. And no, they don't have to give you anything to live on before
    >>>> you
    >>>> > state otherwise. You would have no choice but to either starve or
    >>>> claim
    >>>> > JSA but remember that you can also have that refused if you say your
    >>>> > health problems prevent you from working at all. Though by then you
    >>>> > could
    >>>> > use the services of the Shaw Trust as you will probably meet their
    >>>> > criteria for accessing their services. Though as they are a not for
    >>>> > profit
    >>>> > organisation they would probably not appreciate time wasters who
    >>>> are > more
    >>>> > concerned with living a life on benefits than actually doing
    >>>> > something
    >>>> > constructive.
    >>>>
    >>>> Bloody hell, you can half paint a grim picture. None of that crap
    >>>> bothers
    >>>> me. If I fail at the first tier I can claim IB while waiting for the
    >>>> second
    >>>> tier, or hardship payment. The bottom line is they cant leave me with
    >>>> no
    >>>> money to live on.
    >>>> Makes you wonder why they have such a convoluted system, doesnt it.
    >>>> Designed
    >>>> to put people off no doubt. They can squirm and wriggle as much as they
    >>>> like, they have to follow the letter of the law.
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>> > You'll have to do a few more baccy runs to get money to live on if
    >>>> > you
    >>>> > lose the appeal...
    >>>>
    >>>> I suppose I will have to do something like that if they leave me with
    >>>> no
    >>>> money to live on, we will soon find out how far they can go when it
    >>>> comes to
    >>>> threatening someones right to life by starving them to death. Some kid
    >>>> died
    >>>> from starvation recently, the parents were charged with murder. The
    >>>> prosecution maintained that starving the girl to death was no different
    >>>> to
    >>>> someone shooting or strangling her, or beating her to death, the
    >>>> outcome was
    >>>> the same.- Hide quoted text -
    >>>>
    >>>> - Show quoted text -
    >>>
    >>> Yes, starved several children, of which one died and the others may
    >>> have health problems for years to come. Big story in the local press
    >>> at the time.
    >>> Thats parents choosing to do something - not government refusing to
    >>> give money.

    >>
    >> Same difference when you rely on benefit to live.
    >>
    >>
    >>>
    >>> How can you claim IB?
    >>>

    >>
    >> Cos I B goin down there to gets it. I know what you are thinking, they
    >> have scrapped IB and replaced it with ESA. Well they still have IB
    >> according to direct.gov.uk

    >
    > Yes, for claims made prior to 27/10/08. Any claim made on or after that
    > date is made under the new ESA regime.
    >
    > Anyway, at 12 points you aren't that far off the 15 points you need. What
    > did you get - 4 lots of 3 points, 2 lots of 6 points, a 9 points and a 3
    > points or one lot of 12 points? (I'm assuming the points were all for
    > mental health as I think you linked to a web site for those descriptors).
    > Under the All Work Test for IB / IS you would have qualified as the points
    > threshold for mental health only (no physical health points) points was
    > 10. If you got 10 you were deemed to have got 15 points and the
    > descriptors were greater in number and a lot easier to be scored on. But
    > as I said, hopefully you'll be able to get them to tweak one of the point
    > scoring to get them to increase your total by 3 points.


    2 lots of 6 I got which does not make sense in isolation, "coping with
    social situations" for eg cant be taken in isolation from "coping with
    change" or "going out". If you have a problem coping with social situations,
    then it follows you must have a problem with going out. IYSWIM. It also
    follows that you must have a problem with "behaviour with other people" if
    you have the problem "coping with social situations". The assessment is full
    of contradictions like this, what there is of it, most of it has been left
    out. The whole so called assessment lasted for about 10 minutes. According
    to the website its supposed to take about 1hr 15mins.


    >
    > As you know what you need to get more points for each descriptor it gives
    > you the basis on which to prepare for tribunal. It might help to write a
    > short paragraph on what you think you should have got for each descriptor
    > and why - it will help you at the tribunal. Though I think you said you
    > felt you should have got 60 points, which is asking a lot. I assume that
    > is based on 4 descriptors at 15 points for each one?
    >


    60 pts was based on a complete assessment, what I got was a condensed
    version, IOW the assessment was not done according to the guidelines,
    whatever they are, a full assessment I suppose.
     
    Niteawk, Jun 11, 2009
    #14
  15. Niteawk

    Guest

    On 11 June, 20:28, "Niteawk" <> wrote:
    > "Robbie" <> wrote in message
    > >> Bloody hell, you can half paint a grim picture.

    >
    > > Just balancing up the over optimistic picture you were painting!

    >
    > >  None of that crap bothers me. If I fail at the first tier I can claim IB
    > > while waiting for
    > >> the second tier, or hardship payment.

    >
    > > IB has been abolished although you wouldn't have qualified for it anyway.
    > > The only hardship payment available to you is when you claim JSA. Thereis
    > > no equivalent under ESA. There is a Crisis Loan but you don't qualify for
    > > a Crisis Loan if you are unable to repay the money you are loaned.

    >
    > > The bottom line is they cant leave
    > >> me with no money to live on.

    >
    > > Oh yes they can. And it happens more frequently than what you think.

    >
    > We will soon see what happens when I go to appeal.
    >
    >
    >
    > >  Makes you wonder why they have such a convoluted system, doesnt it.
    > >> Designed to put people off no doubt. They can squirm and wriggle as much
    > >> as they like, they have to follow the letter of the law.

    >
    > > Which lays down circumstances when they can and can't pay benefit. You
    > > have to follow the law too which determines when these circumstances
    > > arise.

    >
    > And whats all this crap about the law saying you are entitled to x amountof
    > money to live on? It seems to me that the law is only there as long as it
    > suits their purposes, they ignore the law when it applies to claimants. And
    > dont try to say they dont do things like that, I have been in that situation
    > before with JSA. Although they tried not to, they had to pay up in the end,
    > by law that is.
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > >>> You'll have to do a few more baccy runs to get money to live on if you
    > >>> lose the appeal...

    >
    > >> I suppose I will have to do something like that if they leave me with no
    > >> money to live on

    >
    > > as if you weren't doing them anyway. You've already admitted you do them.

    >
    > > , we will soon find out how far they can go when it
    > >> comes to threatening someones right to life by starving them to death.
    > >> Some kid died from starvation recently, the parents were charged with
    > >> murder. The prosecution maintained that starving the girl to death wasno
    > >> different to someone shooting or strangling her, or beating her to death,
    > >> the outcome was the same.

    >
    > > The kid had no say in the matter. You do.

    >
    > Just an example to show that starving someone to death is classed as murder.
    > If I leave someone with no money to buy food, it amounts to the same thing.
    >
    > I know this did not happen in this case, but lets suppose it did for a
    > minute. What would the prosecution say if the parents of the kid said they
    > had no money for food, their ESA was stopped pending the second stage of
    > their appeal. Some shit would hit the fan then, wouldnt it. Many heads would
    > roll if that was the case, the parents may well walk free from court if they
    > could use that as a defence.- Hide quoted text -
    >
    > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
    >
    > - Show quoted text -


    Rather unlikely that a court would agree that parents could use any
    money they do have simply for their own food but not the kids. And ESA
    won't be whole income if there are kids in the house.
    The kids themselves have income that is paid to the parents - child
    benefit etc.

    Don't know about your parents but I know mine made sure us kids had
    food.


    Martin <><
     
    , Jun 11, 2009
    #15
  16. Niteawk

    Niteawk Guest

    "Mike" <> wrote in message
    news:h0rqop$dqd$-september.org...
    >
    > As the DWP allows itself upto 90 days to send the appeal to the tribunal
    > and then they schedule it you may need to think a bit more about your
    > 'plan'.
    >


    And I am sure they will use 89 of them before sending my appeal in, then the
    TS will inform me when I have to go to tribunal, which can be anytime up to
    6 months before they hear my case.



    >>
    >> And whats all this crap about the law saying you are entitled to x amount
    >> of money to live on? It seems to me that the law is only there as long as
    >> it suits their purposes, they ignore the law when it applies to
    >> claimants. And dont try to say they dont do things like that, I have been
    >> in that situation before with JSA. Although they tried not to, they had
    >> to pay up in the end, by law that is.

    >
    > There are conditions attached and you are entitled to the money provided
    > you follow the rest of the rules/ meet the criteria.


    Oh I meet the criteria all right, thats the problem. As I said, they do not
    like rules that favour claimants, thats why we have this situation. Now my
    GP, the IAPT, including the previous health people I dealt with, have to
    write letters for these twats, simply because they refuse to accept the
    mountain of evidence before them, which as I pointed out in the beginning, I
    knew they would do this from previous experience, they always ignore rules
    that apply to claimants.



    >> Just an example to show that starving someone to death is classed as
    >> murder. If I leave someone with no money to buy food, it amounts to the
    >> same thing.

    >
    > Not at all, unless you lock them up.


    So food is free is it.


    >
    >> I know this did not happen in this case,

    >
    > So why compare your plight at all??


    The mind of the benefit officer at work again I see, if you cant figure it
    out, I am not going to explain it, just like they do in JC/HB depts. Work it
    out yourself ;)



    >
    >> but lets suppose it did for a minute. What would the prosecution say if
    >> the parents of the kid said they had no money for food, their ESA was
    >> stopped pending the second stage of their appeal. Some shit would hit the
    >> fan then, wouldnt it. Many heads would roll if that was the case, the
    >> parents may well walk free from court if they could use that as a
    >> defence.

    >
    > Bullshit - the parents have an alternative to starving their child to
    > death 'on principal'. Social services would even step in if they became
    > aware of a severely malnourished child.


    Apparently social services were involved but as with all government depts
    these days, they havnt got a clue what they are doing, the same thing
    happened with baby P. All this shows is, none of the idiots working for the
    government know what they are doing. I swear some of them do not even know
    what a child looks like, a live one anyway. How the **** do these clowns get
    jobs caring for children, xRay their heads to see if there is a pea inside.


    Ultimately if the parents hide
    > their child away and starve it to death to 'prove' the DWP are a big bunch
    > of meanies they would still be morally and legally responsible for it's
    > death. No heads would roll provided social services did not ignore it's
    > plight and the DWP followed the law and it's own procedures.
    >
    > You really do live in a world of your own niteawk - population: 1. I
    > suggest you read a little more and you'll realise just how stupid your
    > comparison is:


    My comparison is not that stupid, it relates to the government and how they
    treat people, take it a stage further and apply it to clowns who administer
    benefits, do they really know what they are doing, I dont think so.
     
    Niteawk, Jun 11, 2009
    #16
  17. Niteawk

    Niteawk Guest

    <> wrote in message
    news:...
    On 11 June, 20:28, "Niteawk" <> wrote:
    > "Robbie" <> wrote in message
    > >> Bloody hell, you can half paint a grim picture.

    >
    > > Just balancing up the over optimistic picture you were painting!

    >
    > > None of that crap bothers me. If I fail at the first tier I can claim IB
    > > while waiting for
    > >> the second tier, or hardship payment.

    >
    > > IB has been abolished although you wouldn't have qualified for it
    > > anyway.
    > > The only hardship payment available to you is when you claim JSA. There
    > > is
    > > no equivalent under ESA. There is a Crisis Loan but you don't qualify
    > > for
    > > a Crisis Loan if you are unable to repay the money you are loaned.

    >
    > > The bottom line is they cant leave
    > >> me with no money to live on.

    >
    > > Oh yes they can. And it happens more frequently than what you think.

    >
    > We will soon see what happens when I go to appeal.
    >
    >
    >
    > > Makes you wonder why they have such a convoluted system, doesnt it.
    > >> Designed to put people off no doubt. They can squirm and wriggle as
    > >> much
    > >> as they like, they have to follow the letter of the law.

    >
    > > Which lays down circumstances when they can and can't pay benefit. You
    > > have to follow the law too which determines when these circumstances
    > > arise.

    >
    > And whats all this crap about the law saying you are entitled to x amount
    > of
    > money to live on? It seems to me that the law is only there as long as it
    > suits their purposes, they ignore the law when it applies to claimants.
    > And
    > dont try to say they dont do things like that, I have been in that
    > situation
    > before with JSA. Although they tried not to, they had to pay up in the
    > end,
    > by law that is.
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > >>> You'll have to do a few more baccy runs to get money to live on if you
    > >>> lose the appeal...

    >
    > >> I suppose I will have to do something like that if they leave me with
    > >> no
    > >> money to live on

    >
    > > as if you weren't doing them anyway. You've already admitted you do
    > > them.

    >
    > > , we will soon find out how far they can go when it
    > >> comes to threatening someones right to life by starving them to death.
    > >> Some kid died from starvation recently, the parents were charged with
    > >> murder. The prosecution maintained that starving the girl to death was
    > >> no
    > >> different to someone shooting or strangling her, or beating her to
    > >> death,
    > >> the outcome was the same.

    >
    > > The kid had no say in the matter. You do.

    >
    > Just an example to show that starving someone to death is classed as
    > murder.
    > If I leave someone with no money to buy food, it amounts to the same
    > thing.
    >
    > I know this did not happen in this case, but lets suppose it did for a
    > minute. What would the prosecution say if the parents of the kid said they
    > had no money for food, their ESA was stopped pending the second stage of
    > their appeal. Some shit would hit the fan then, wouldnt it. Many heads
    > would
    > roll if that was the case, the parents may well walk free from court if
    > they
    > could use that as a defence.- Hide quoted text -
    >
    > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
    >
    > - Show quoted text -


    Rather unlikely that a court would agree that parents could use any
    money they do have simply for their own food but not the kids. And ESA
    won't be whole income if there are kids in the house.
    The kids themselves have income that is paid to the parents - child
    benefit etc.
    ==================================
    The kids were being fed, just not well enough to provide sufficient
    nutrients.




    Don't know about your parents but I know mine made sure us kids had
    food.
    ======================================
    We had school dinners, the rest of the time we were fed by social services,
    sometimes we had dinner at the local nick if we were lucky enough to get
    arrested ;)
     
    Niteawk, Jun 11, 2009
    #17
  18. Niteawk

    mogga Guest

    On Thu, 11 Jun 2009 22:12:41 +0100, "Niteawk" <>
    wrote:



    >
    >2 lots of 6 I got which does not make sense in isolation, "coping with
    >social situations" for eg cant be taken in isolation from "coping with
    >change" or "going out". If you have a problem coping with social situations,
    >then it follows you must have a problem with going out. IYSWIM. It also


    Nah going out is different from going out and having to deal with
    people. At my worst I didn't want to go out, and as I got better I
    didn't want to have to deal with people when I went out. I'd walk
    rather than catch the bus and have to speak to the bus driver. I'd go
    in a shop where I didn't have to speak to the assistant. Or I'd avoid
    going to situations alone. Sadly going to the doctorscan be very
    stressful - you've got a receptionist to deal with making an
    appointment, turning up and not knowing where you're going to sit, or
    who by, and then you've got to go in a room with a person who's going
    to ask you questions you don't want to answer.

    As well as claiming all these benefits you've got to look long term
    about getting better and leading a normal life.



    >follows that you must have a problem with "behaviour with other people" if
    >you have the problem "coping with social situations". The assessment is full
    >of contradictions like this, what there is of it, most of it has been left
    >out. The whole so called assessment lasted for about 10 minutes. According
    >to the website its supposed to take about 1hr 15mins.
    >
    >
    >>
    >> As you know what you need to get more points for each descriptor it gives
    >> you the basis on which to prepare for tribunal. It might help to write a
    >> short paragraph on what you think you should have got for each descriptor
    >> and why - it will help you at the tribunal. Though I think you said you
    >> felt you should have got 60 points, which is asking a lot. I assume that
    >> is based on 4 descriptors at 15 points for each one?
    >>

    >
    >60 pts was based on a complete assessment, what I got was a condensed
    >version, IOW the assessment was not done according to the guidelines,
    >whatever they are, a full assessment I suppose.
    >

    --
    http://www.freedeliveryuk.co.uk
    http://www.holidayunder100.co.uk
     
    mogga, Jun 12, 2009
    #18
  19. Niteawk

    Niteawk Guest

    "mogga" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > On Thu, 11 Jun 2009 22:12:41 +0100, "Niteawk" <>
    > wrote:
    >
    >
    >
    >>
    >>2 lots of 6 I got which does not make sense in isolation, "coping with
    >>social situations" for eg cant be taken in isolation from "coping with
    >>change" or "going out". If you have a problem coping with social
    >>situations,
    >>then it follows you must have a problem with going out. IYSWIM. It also

    >
    > Nah going out is different from going out and having to deal with
    > people. At my worst I didn't want to go out,


    Either way, I should have been scored for it. I dont like going out until I
    feel I can that is. All part of the overall problem and one of the many
    points which was completely ignored by the assessment.



    and as I got better I
    > didn't want to have to deal with people when I went out. I'd walk
    > rather than catch the bus and have to speak to the bus driver. I'd go
    > in a shop where I didn't have to speak to the assistant. Or I'd avoid
    > going to situations alone. Sadly going to the doctorscan be very
    > stressful - you've got a receptionist to deal with making an
    > appointment, turning up and not knowing where you're going to sit, or
    > who by, and then you've got to go in a room with a person who's going
    > to ask you questions you don't want to answer.
    >


    Yes, I can imagine what its like, when you dont want to see people they
    should leave you alone, but as you say, you have to see them up to a point,
    especially the GP. Did you ever carry weapons or keep an array of weapons
    around the house because you did not feel safe?
     
    Niteawk, Jun 12, 2009
    #19
  20. Niteawk

    Guest

    On 12 June, 12:43, "Niteawk" <> wrote:
    > "mogga" <> wrote in message
    >
    > news:...
    >
    > > On Thu, 11 Jun 2009 22:12:41 +0100, "Niteawk" <>
    > > wrote:

    >
    > >>2 lots of 6 I got which does not make sense in isolation, "coping with
    > >>social situations" for eg cant be taken in isolation from "coping with
    > >>change" or "going out". If you have a problem coping with social
    > >>situations,
    > >>then it follows you must have a problem with going out. IYSWIM. It also

    >
    > > Nah going out is different from going out and having to deal with
    > > people. At my worst I didn't want to go out,

    >
    > Either way, I should have been scored for it. I dont like going out untilI
    > feel I can that is. All part of the overall problem and one of the many
    > points which was completely ignored by the assessment.
    >
    > and as I got better I
    >
    > > didn't want to have to deal with people when I went out. I'd walk
    > > rather than catch the bus and have to speak to the bus driver. I'd go
    > > in a shop where I didn't have to speak to the assistant.  Or I'd avoid
    > > going to situations alone. Sadly going to the doctorscan be  very
    > > stressful  - you've got a receptionist to deal with making an
    > > appointment, turning up and not knowing where you're going to sit, or
    > > who by, and then you've got to go in a room with a person who's going
    > > to ask you questions you don't want to answer.

    >
    > Yes, I can imagine what its like, when you dont want to see people they
    > should leave you alone, but as you say, you have to see them up to a point,
    > especially the GP. Did you ever carry weapons or keep an array of weapons
    > around the house because you did not feel safe?


    Can get perfectly legal weapons off the government too.
    Or buy own - of particular types.

    Walking sticks are a few feet in length, can be wood, metal or mixture
    of both. Can be used in comfined spaces, are much bigger than knives.
    Or if you lose a hand, get a hook.
    I wouldn't recommend cutting hand off though.

    Martin <><
     
    , Jun 12, 2009
    #20
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