off-shore accoun

Discussion in 'UK Tax Credits and Benefits' started by Hiram, Sep 24, 2010.

  1. Hiram

    Hiram Guest

    I know of someone who is on currently benefits, but who holds a
    substantial cash sum in an off-shore account.

    I presume there is nothing I can do about it?
     
    Hiram, Sep 24, 2010
    #1
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  2. Hiram

    Robbie Guest

    Hiram wrote:
    > I know of someone who is on currently benefits, but who holds a
    > substantial cash sum in an off-shore account.
    >
    > I presume there is nothing I can do about it?


    It depends what benefits they are on. Not every benefit is means tested
    and those that are do allow you to have a decent amount of savings. But
    you can always report them if you are sure they are defrauding the system.

    --
    Robbie
     
    Robbie, Sep 24, 2010
    #2
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  3. Hiram

    Fredxx Guest

    Re: off-shore account

    Hiram wrote:
    > I know of someone who is on currently benefits, but who holds a
    > substantial cash sum in an off-shore account.
    >
    > I presume there is nothing I can do about it?


    How do you know? Have you seen evidence?

    I have known snouts to be caught out by being given bogus info.

    Privacy laws are great aren't they!! Perhaps we should follow the US
    example and publish benefits and tax returns. They have a lesser need for
    tax or benefit fraud inpectors.
     
    Fredxx, Sep 24, 2010
    #3
  4. Hiram

    Hiram Guest

    Re: off-shore account

    On 24 Sep, 15:03, "Fredxx" <> wrote:
    > Hiram wrote:
    > > I know of someone who is on currently benefits, but who holds a
    > > substantial cash sum in an off-shore account.

    >
    > > I presume there is nothing I can do about it?

    >
    > How do you know?  Have you seen evidence?
    >
    > I have known snouts to be caught out by being given bogus info.
    >
    > Privacy laws are great aren't they!!  Perhaps we should follow the US
    > example and publish benefits and tax returns.  They have a lesser need for
    > tax or benefit fraud inpectors.


    No, not 100% sure he has the cash. But we'd recently been disusing
    putting cash off-shore, as I have a Jersey Euro's account. So I have
    strong suspicions.

    He is definitely on JSA, I am sure of that.
     
    Hiram, Sep 24, 2010
    #4
  5. Hiram

    Hiram Guest

    On 24 Sep, 14:25, Robbie <> wrote:
    > Hiram wrote:
    > > I know of someone who is on currently benefits, but who holds a
    > > substantial cash sum in an off-shore account.

    >
    > > I presume there is nothing I can do about it?

    >
    > It depends what benefits they are on. Not every benefit is means tested
    > and those that are do allow you to have a decent amount of savings. But
    > you can always report them if you are sure they are defrauding the system.
    >
    > --
    > Robbie


    Yes I may report them. But the whole point of having an off-shore
    account is that it is invisible to the UK authorities.

    So sadly, I guess I'm answering my own question.
     
    Hiram, Sep 24, 2010
    #5
  6. Hiram

    Hiram Guest

    On 24 Sep, 14:25, Robbie <> wrote:
    > Hiram wrote:
    > > I know of someone who is on currently benefits, but who holds a
    > > substantial cash sum in an off-shore account.

    >
    > > I presume there is nothing I can do about it?

    >
    > It depends what benefits they are on. Not every benefit is means tested
    > and those that are do allow you to have a decent amount of savings. But
    > you can always report them if you are sure they are defrauding the system.
    >
    > --
    > Robbie


    Yes I may report them. But the whole point of having an off-shore
    account is that it is invisible to the UK authorities.

    So sadly, I guess I'm answering my own question.
     
    Hiram, Sep 24, 2010
    #6
  7. Hiram

    mike Guest

    Re: off-shore account

    On 24/09/2010 17:21, Hiram wrote:
    > On 24 Sep, 15:03, "Fredxx"<> wrote:
    >> Hiram wrote:
    >>> I know of someone who is on currently benefits, but who holds a
    >>> substantial cash sum in an off-shore account.

    >>
    >>> I presume there is nothing I can do about it?

    >>
    >> How do you know? Have you seen evidence?
    >>
    >> I have known snouts to be caught out by being given bogus info.
    >>
    >> Privacy laws are great aren't they!! Perhaps we should follow the US
    >> example and publish benefits and tax returns. They have a lesser need for
    >> tax or benefit fraud inpectors.

    >
    > No, not 100% sure he has the cash. But we'd recently been disusing
    > putting cash off-shore, as I have a Jersey Euro's account. So I have
    > strong suspicions.
    >
    > He is definitely on JSA, I am sure of that.


    If you can provide sufficient info then the DWP will be able to
    interview him under caution, if he's a proficient liar he be able to
    deny everything however many people aren't, and faced with a true
    accusation will own up.

    The vague detail you've given here would not interest the DWP at all,
    they will simply not investigate but if you can give dates, names of the
    bank or figures then they may get interested. The more info they have
    the more likely your friend will own up when confronted.

    Mike
     
    mike, Sep 24, 2010
    #7
  8. Hiram

    Robbie Guest

    Re: off-shore account

    On 24/09/2010 17:21, Hiram wrote:
    > On 24 Sep, 15:03, "Fredxx"<> wrote:
    >> Hiram wrote:
    >>> I know of someone who is on currently benefits, but who holds a
    >>> substantial cash sum in an off-shore account.

    >>
    >>> I presume there is nothing I can do about it?

    >>
    >> How do you know? Have you seen evidence?
    >>
    >> I have known snouts to be caught out by being given bogus info.
    >>
    >> Privacy laws are great aren't they!! Perhaps we should follow the US
    >> example and publish benefits and tax returns. They have a lesser need for
    >> tax or benefit fraud inpectors.

    >
    > No, not 100% sure he has the cash. But we'd recently been disusing
    > putting cash off-shore, as I have a Jersey Euro's account. So I have
    > strong suspicions.
    >
    > He is definitely on JSA, I am sure of that.


    It depends what type of JSA it is. Means tested JSA is one thing but
    there is also a contributions based JSA that can be paid regardless of
    savings. A millionaire can receive contributions based JSA.
     
    Robbie, Sep 24, 2010
    #8
  9. Hiram

    paul k Guest

    Re: off-shore account

    does that mean the 10 million ive got could affect my benefits

    "Robbie" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > On 24/09/2010 17:21, Hiram wrote:
    >> On 24 Sep, 15:03, "Fredxx"<> wrote:
    >>> Hiram wrote:
    >>>> I know of someone who is on currently benefits, but who holds a
    >>>> substantial cash sum in an off-shore account.
    >>>
    >>>> I presume there is nothing I can do about it?
    >>>
    >>> How do you know? Have you seen evidence?
    >>>
    >>> I have known snouts to be caught out by being given bogus info.
    >>>
    >>> Privacy laws are great aren't they!! Perhaps we should follow the US
    >>> example and publish benefits and tax returns. They have a lesser need
    >>> for
    >>> tax or benefit fraud inpectors.

    >>
    >> No, not 100% sure he has the cash. But we'd recently been disusing
    >> putting cash off-shore, as I have a Jersey Euro's account. So I have
    >> strong suspicions.
    >>
    >> He is definitely on JSA, I am sure of that.

    >
    > It depends what type of JSA it is. Means tested JSA is one thing but there
    > is also a contributions based JSA that can be paid regardless of savings.
    > A millionaire can receive contributions based JSA.
     
    paul k, Sep 25, 2010
    #9
  10. Hiram

    mike Guest

    Re: off-shore account

    On 25/09/2010 14:14, paul k wrote:
    > does that mean the 10 million ive got could affect my benefits


    If you give me £1m I'll let you know.

    Mike
     
    mike, Sep 25, 2010
    #10
  11. Hiram

    Hiram Guest

    Re: off-shore account

    On 24 Sep, 17:35, mike <>
    wrote:
    > On 24/09/2010 17:21, Hiram wrote:
    >
    >
    >
    > > On 24 Sep, 15:03, "Fredxx"<>  wrote:
    > >> Hiram wrote:
    > >>> I know of someone who is on currently benefits, but who holds a
    > >>> substantial cash sum in an off-shore account.

    >
    > >>> I presume there is nothing I can do about it?

    >
    > >> How do you know?  Have you seen evidence?

    >
    > >> I have known snouts to be caught out by being given bogus info.

    >
    > >> Privacy laws are great aren't they!!  Perhaps we should follow the US
    > >> example and publish benefits and tax returns.  They have a lesser need for
    > >> tax or benefit fraud inpectors.

    >
    > > No, not 100% sure he has the cash.  But we'd recently been disusing
    > > putting cash off-shore, as I have a Jersey Euro's account.  So I have
    > > strong suspicions.

    >
    > > He is definitely on JSA, I am sure of that.

    >
    > If you can provide sufficient info then the DWP will be able to
    > interview him under caution,


    I could give institution and rough quantities. And possibly the
    currency involved. I only invest in Euro's and Dollars, I think he'd
    be the same.

    I'll be interested to see how the DWP go about investigating something
    like this.

    It would also be interesting to see how the law is written in regard
    to savings. Insofar as, what constitutes savings. A house is an
    asset, yet, that isn't counted I believe. A pension is an investment,
    is that counted as saving?

    Anyway. I will do some more digging. Do you have a number I can
    phone if I get something more substantial?
     
    Hiram, Sep 26, 2010
    #11
  12. Hiram

    Hiram Guest

    Re: off-shore account


    > savings. A millionaire can receive contributions based JSA.


    I hope they change that in the Comprehensive Spending Review next
    month.
     
    Hiram, Sep 26, 2010
    #12
  13. Hiram

    Robbie Guest

    Re: off-shore account

    Hiram wrote:
    >> savings. A millionaire can receive contributions based JSA.

    >
    > I hope they change that in the Comprehensive Spending Review next
    > month.


    Why?

    What do you think people pay National Insurance for?

    --
    Robbie
     
    Robbie, Sep 26, 2010
    #13
  14. Hiram

    mike Guest

    Re: off-shore account

    On 26/09/2010 10:33, Hiram wrote:
    > On 24 Sep, 17:35, mike<>
    > wrote:
    >> On 24/09/2010 17:21, Hiram wrote:
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>> On 24 Sep, 15:03, "Fredxx"<> wrote:
    >>>> Hiram wrote:
    >>>>> I know of someone who is on currently benefits, but who holds a
    >>>>> substantial cash sum in an off-shore account.

    >>
    >>>>> I presume there is nothing I can do about it?

    >>
    >>>> How do you know? Have you seen evidence?

    >>
    >>>> I have known snouts to be caught out by being given bogus info.

    >>
    >>>> Privacy laws are great aren't they!! Perhaps we should follow the US
    >>>> example and publish benefits and tax returns. They have a lesser need for
    >>>> tax or benefit fraud inpectors.

    >>
    >>> No, not 100% sure he has the cash. But we'd recently been disusing
    >>> putting cash off-shore, as I have a Jersey Euro's account. So I have
    >>> strong suspicions.

    >>
    >>> He is definitely on JSA, I am sure of that.

    >>
    >> If you can provide sufficient info then the DWP will be able to
    >> interview him under caution,

    >
    > I could give institution and rough quantities. And possibly the
    > currency involved. I only invest in Euro's and Dollars, I think he'd
    > be the same.
    >
    > I'll be interested to see how the DWP go about investigating something
    > like this.
    >
    > It would also be interesting to see how the law is written in regard
    > to savings. Insofar as, what constitutes savings. A house is an
    > asset, yet, that isn't counted I believe. A pension is an investment,
    > is that counted as saving?
    >
    > Anyway. I will do some more digging. Do you have a number I can
    > phone if I get something more substantial?


    https://secure.dwp.gov.uk/benefitfraud/

    The house in which you live is not considered savings, most commonly
    property considered as savings belongs to people who have moved
    permanently into a care home.

    A pension is not considered savings for Pension Credit purposes (not
    sure about IS/JSA) but you are expected to draw on it as early as you
    can or it can be treated as notional income. That means the pension
    entitlement is taken into account as though you are receiving it.

    The information you have seems vague, without a bit more it's unlikely
    they would even call him in. The fraud teams have standing warrants
    which allow them to obtain financial info etc from UK institutions. If
    he had the money in a Barclays UK account and moved it overseas they
    would be able to see the UK end of the transaction.

    If you know where the money was held and when it left the investigators
    could get a copy of the statement and ask him to explain.

    Mike
     
    mike, Sep 26, 2010
    #14
  15. Hiram

    Guest

    Re: off-shore account

    On 26 Sep, 10:33, Hiram <> wrote:
    > On 24 Sep, 17:35, mike <>
    > wrote:
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > > On 24/09/2010 17:21, Hiram wrote:

    >
    > > > On 24 Sep, 15:03, "Fredxx"<>  wrote:
    > > >> Hiram wrote:
    > > >>> I know of someone who is on currently benefits, but who holds a
    > > >>> substantial cash sum in an off-shore account.

    >
    > > >>> I presume there is nothing I can do about it?

    >
    > > >> How do you know?  Have you seen evidence?

    >
    > > >> I have known snouts to be caught out by being given bogus info.

    >
    > > >> Privacy laws are great aren't they!!  Perhaps we should follow theUS
    > > >> example and publish benefits and tax returns.  They have a lesser need for
    > > >> tax or benefit fraud inpectors.

    >
    > > > No, not 100% sure he has the cash.  But we'd recently been disusing
    > > > putting cash off-shore, as I have a Jersey Euro's account.  So I have
    > > > strong suspicions.

    >
    > > > He is definitely on JSA, I am sure of that.

    >
    > > If you can provide sufficient info then the DWP will be able to
    > > interview him under caution,

    >
    > I could give institution and rough quantities.  And possibly the
    > currency involved.  I only invest in Euro's and Dollars, I think he'd
    > be the same.
    >
    > I'll be interested to see how the DWP go about investigating something
    > like this.
    >
    > It would also be interesting to see how the law is written in regard
    > to savings. Insofar as, what constitutes savings.   A house is an
    > asset, yet, that isn't counted I believe.  A pension is an investment,
    > is that counted as saving?
    >
    > Anyway.  I will do some more digging.  Do you have a number I can
    > phone if I get something more substantial?- Hide quoted text -
    >
    > - Show quoted text -


    Depending on how you look at it, a house you are living in can be a
    liability rather than an asset. Only becoming an asset when sold.
    A 2nd house is an asset as an income can be made from it.

    Pensions are an odd area. For most it isn't treated as savings, though
    once you start accessing it then the proceeds can be income. For the
    few of us who run our own pension scheme, it is savings.
    We lose the tax breaks but we do have access to the capital (and
    income) while also controlling how and where it is invested.

    Martin <><
     
    , Sep 27, 2010
    #15
  16. Hiram

    Fredxx Guest

    Re: off-shore account

    "Hiram" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    >
    >> savings. A millionaire can receive contributions based JSA.

    >
    > I hope they change that in the Comprehensive Spending Review next
    > month.


    Why? He's probably making a net positive contribution to the treasury.
    He's paid NI for the appropriate amount of time. We have enough means
    tested benefits which only serve to discourage savings meaning a greater
    dependency on benefits.
     
    Fredxx, Sep 27, 2010
    #16
  17. Hiram

    Fredxx Guest

    Re: off-shore account

    mike wrote:
    > On 24/09/2010 17:21, Hiram wrote:
    >> On 24 Sep, 15:03, "Fredxx"<> wrote:
    >>> Hiram wrote:
    >>>> I know of someone who is on currently benefits, but who holds a
    >>>> substantial cash sum in an off-shore account.
    >>>
    >>>> I presume there is nothing I can do about it?
    >>>
    >>> How do you know? Have you seen evidence?
    >>>
    >>> I have known snouts to be caught out by being given bogus info.
    >>>
    >>> Privacy laws are great aren't they!! Perhaps we should follow the
    >>> US example and publish benefits and tax returns. They have a
    >>> lesser need for tax or benefit fraud inpectors.

    >>
    >> No, not 100% sure he has the cash. But we'd recently been disusing
    >> putting cash off-shore, as I have a Jersey Euro's account. So I have
    >> strong suspicions.
    >>
    >> He is definitely on JSA, I am sure of that.

    >
    > If you can provide sufficient info then the DWP will be able to
    > interview him under caution, if he's a proficient liar he be able to
    > deny everything however many people aren't, and faced with a true
    > accusation will own up.
    >
    > The vague detail you've given here would not interest the DWP at all,
    > they will simply not investigate but if you can give dates, names of
    > the bank or figures then they may get interested. The more info they
    > have the more likely your friend will own up when confronted.
    >


    If I was this guy I would say I was trying to extract info out of you, as I
    was sure you were doing very dodgy deals and HMRC might be interested. I'd
    also learn who's windows I should throw a brick through!!
     
    Fredxx, Sep 27, 2010
    #17
  18. Hiram

    Hiram Guest

    Re: off-shore account

    On 27 Sep, 09:40, "Fredxx" <> wrote:
    > mike wrote:
    > > On 24/09/2010 17:21, Hiram wrote:
    > >> On 24 Sep, 15:03, "Fredxx"<>  wrote:
    > >>> Hiram wrote:
    > >>>> I know of someone who is on currently benefits, but who holds a
    > >>>> substantial cash sum in an off-shore account.

    >
    > >>>> I presume there is nothing I can do about it?

    >
    > >>> How do you know?  Have you seen evidence?

    >
    > >>> I have known snouts to be caught out by being given bogus info.

    >
    > >>> Privacy laws are great aren't they!!  Perhaps we should follow the
    > >>> US example and publish benefits and tax returns.  They have a
    > >>> lesser need for tax or benefit fraud inpectors.

    >
    > >> No, not 100% sure he has the cash.  But we'd recently been disusing
    > >> putting cash off-shore, as I have a Jersey Euro's account.  So I have
    > >> strong suspicions.

    >
    > >> He is definitely on JSA, I am sure of that.

    >
    > > If you can provide sufficient info then the DWP will be able to
    > > interview him under caution, if he's a proficient liar he be able to
    > > deny everything however many people aren't, and faced with a true
    > > accusation will own up.

    >
    > > The vague detail you've given here would not interest the DWP at all,
    > > they will simply not investigate but if you can give dates, names of
    > > the bank or figures then they may get interested.  The more info they
    > > have the more likely your friend will own up when confronted.

    >
    > If I was this guy I would say I was trying to extract info out of you, asI
    > was sure you were doing very dodgy deals and HMRC might be interested.  I'd
    > also learn who's windows I should throw a brick through!!


    I must admit, I was thinking HMRC may be a better choice.
     
    Hiram, Sep 27, 2010
    #18
  19. Hiram

    Hiram Guest

    Re: off-shore account

    On 26 Sep, 17:46, mike <>
    wrote:
    > On 26/09/2010 10:33, Hiram wrote:
    >
    >
    >
    > > On 24 Sep, 17:35, mike<>
    > > wrote:
    > >> On 24/09/2010 17:21, Hiram wrote:

    >
    > >>> On 24 Sep, 15:03, "Fredxx"<>    wrote:
    > >>>> Hiram wrote:
    > >>>>> I know of someone who is on currently benefits, but who holds a
    > >>>>> substantial cash sum in an off-shore account.

    >
    > >>>>> I presume there is nothing I can do about it?

    >
    > >>>> How do you know?  Have you seen evidence?

    >
    > >>>> I have known snouts to be caught out by being given bogus info.

    >
    > >>>> Privacy laws are great aren't they!!  Perhaps we should follow theUS
    > >>>> example and publish benefits and tax returns.  They have a lesser need for
    > >>>> tax or benefit fraud inpectors.

    >
    > >>> No, not 100% sure he has the cash.  But we'd recently been disusing
    > >>> putting cash off-shore, as I have a Jersey Euro's account.  So I have
    > >>> strong suspicions.

    >
    > >>> He is definitely on JSA, I am sure of that.

    >
    > >> If you can provide sufficient info then the DWP will be able to
    > >> interview him under caution,

    >
    > > I could give institution and rough quantities.  And possibly the
    > > currency involved.  I only invest in Euro's and Dollars, I think he'd
    > > be the same.

    >
    > > I'll be interested to see how the DWP go about investigating something
    > > like this.

    >
    > > It would also be interesting to see how the law is written in regard
    > > to savings. Insofar as, what constitutes savings.   A house is an
    > > asset, yet, that isn't counted I believe.  A pension is an investment,
    > > is that counted as saving?

    >
    > > Anyway.  I will do some more digging.  Do you have a number I can
    > > phone if I get something more substantial?

    >
    > https://secure.dwp.gov.uk/benefitfraud/
    >
    > The house in which you live is not considered savings, most commonly
    > property considered as savings belongs to people who have moved
    > permanently into a care home.
    >
    > A pension is not considered savings for Pension Credit purposes (not
    > sure about IS/JSA) but you are expected to draw on it as early as you
    > can or it can be treated as notional income.  That means the pension
    > entitlement is taken into account as though you are receiving it.
    >
    > The information you have seems vague, without a bit more it's unlikely
    > they would even call him in.  The fraud teams have standing warrants
    > which allow them to obtain financial info etc from UK institutions.  If
    > he had the money in a Barclays UK account and moved it overseas they
    > would be able to see the UK end of the transaction.
    >
    > If you know where the money was held and when it left the investigators
    > could get a copy of the statement and ask him to explain.
    >
    > Mike


    Unfortunately, I disagree with the rules on this one. I think a house
    should be counted as saving. I'll concede on a pension - but if you
    become unemployed, you should have to sell your house. I think the
    rules as they stand are way too complex, personally, I think they need
    to be simplified.

    We'll see what happens next month, I have a feeling the rules are
    likely to get a bit tougher.

    I don't think he'd be dumb enough to have an audit trail through a UK
    bank. But, you never know.
     
    Hiram, Sep 27, 2010
    #19
  20. Hiram

    Hiram Guest

    Re: off-shore account

    On 26 Sep, 13:41, Robbie <> wrote:
    > Hiram wrote:
    > >> savings. A millionaire can receive contributions based JSA.

    >
    > > I hope they change that in the Comprehensive Spending Review next
    > > month.

    >
    > Why?
    >
    > What do you think people pay National Insurance for?
    >
    > --
    > Robbie


    I don't think the NI stamp is sufficient to cover all the benefits you
    can receive. The only way you could do that is to time-limit
    benefits, which is what most of the rest of the world do.
     
    Hiram, Sep 27, 2010
    #20
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