What does a 40 year old AT&T share become??

Discussion in 'Quicken' started by Hank Arnold, Jan 5, 2007.

  1. Hank Arnold

    Hank Arnold Guest

    I recently had to close out a safety deposit box and found a 40 year old
    certificate for the original "Ma Bell" (American Telephone & Telegraph"
    company.

    I can turn it into my financial adviser/broker and let them figure it
    out, but I'm curious as to whether I can somehow figure out what that
    share has turned into (and what it is worth. We're talking the big
    breakup, more breakups, spin-offs, acquisitions, etc.... Also, I don't
    recall getting any dividends (at least in memory). What do I do???
    --

    Regards,
    Hank Arnold
     
    Hank Arnold, Jan 5, 2007
    #1
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  2. Hank Arnold

    R. C. White Guest

    Hi, Hank.

    Congratulations! And condolences.

    Just two days ago I answered a related question here (see: Corp.
    acquisition recording transactions question.) about AT&T's acquisition of
    BellSouth. In the process, I found this web page, which should lead you to
    what you need:
    http://www.att.com/gen/investor-relations?pid=7983

    Click the button under Cost Basis Worksheets for AT&T Corp. shares.

    Oh, that it were really that simple! Since your certificate predates the
    1984 breakup, you probably should start on this page:
    http://www.att.com/gen/investor-relations?pid=7958

    Note the subtle but very significant difference between "AT&T Inc." and
    "AT&T Corp." "Corp." was the 100+ year old company that went through the
    divestiture in 1984, then survived until 2005. "Inc." is the new name for
    the former Southwestern Bell Corporation (SBC), which was spun off from
    Corp. in 1984, but then bought Corp. in 2005 and changed its own name from
    SBC to AT&T Inc. The "Corp." name disappeared in the 2005 transaction - but
    that was the company whose share certificate you now hold.

    Your problem involves calculating the current basis of the AT&T Inc. shares
    represented by that certificate, of course. But you also must determine
    what happened to the shares of Ameritech, BellSouth, NYNEX, SBC, etc., that
    should have been received in 1984! None of those shares have been sold,
    obviously. Your one certificate now represents shares in all those former
    subsidiaries. But it gets worse, because each of those companies went
    through splits, spin-offs and mergers during the 23 years after 1/1/84. For
    example, your certificate represents ownership of some number of shares of
    Lucent, NCR, Comcast and many other corporations. The "basis" of each of
    those shares relates back to the basis in that original AT&T Corp.
    certificate, and the basis of that certificate today must be reduced by each
    of the spun-off securities.

    If that certificate is for a million shares, you can afford to hire a pro to
    do all this. If it is for just one 1966 share, it probably is worth a lot
    today, but not enough to pay a pro, so you'll have to do it all yourself.
    But the same steps are required for one share as for a million. Maybe the
    accumulated dividends (including proceeds from sales of fractional shares)
    will make it worthwhile!

    The good news is that there were millions of AT&T shareholders, and many of
    them were "widows and orphans" who had tucked away their shares and forgot
    about them. Old certificates still turn up fairly often, I suspect, and
    there probably are pros who make a career of helping people like yourself
    who get stuck with the problem. Ask your broker (not the young kid who went
    to work there last year, but the grey-haired old guy who has been there
    forever and is about to retire). Don't ask him to figure it out; just ask
    whom you should contact. I'm sure that AT&T itself has a crew that works
    full-time on these problems. That is the crew that works behind that web
    page.

    If this share is part of the estate of a deceased person, your job may be
    cut in half. Inherited shares usually get a new tax basis and holding
    period based on their fair market value at the date of death of the owner.
    So you don't have to track down the original basis and do all the math to
    apportion it to today's holdings. But you do still need to gather up all
    the shares and fractional shares that should have been received over the
    years and value those at date of death. Then, if the death was not very
    recent, you will need to track developments since the death.

    Good luck, Hank. And please let us know what you find out!

    RC
    --
    R. C. White, CPA
    San Marcos, TX
    (Retired. No longer licensed to practice public accounting.)

    Microsoft Windows MVP
    (Currently running Vista Ultimate x64)

    "Hank Arnold" <> wrote in message
    news:yXqnh.366$...
    >I recently had to close out a safety deposit box and found a 40 year old
    >certificate for the original "Ma Bell" (American Telephone & Telegraph"
    >company.
    >
    > I can turn it into my financial adviser/broker and let them figure it out,
    > but I'm curious as to whether I can somehow figure out what that share has
    > turned into (and what it is worth. We're talking the big breakup, more
    > breakups, spin-offs, acquisitions, etc.... Also, I don't recall getting
    > any dividends (at least in memory). What do I do???
    > --
    >
    > Regards,
    > Hank Arnold
     
    R. C. White, Jan 5, 2007
    #2
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  3. Hank Arnold

    DP Guest

    "Hank Arnold" <> wrote in message
    news:yXqnh.366$...
    >I recently had to close out a safety deposit box and found a 40 year old
    >certificate for the original "Ma Bell" (American Telephone & Telegraph"
    >company.
    >
    > I can turn it into my financial adviser/broker and let them figure it out,
    > but I'm curious as to whether I can somehow figure out what that share has
    > turned into (and what it is worth. We're talking the big breakup, more
    > breakups, spin-offs, acquisitions, etc.... Also, I don't recall getting
    > any dividends (at least in memory). What do I do???
    > --



    Besides R.C. White's excellent response to you, don't forget that the
    physical share itself may have some value.
    There are people who like to collect that old paper the way people collect
    stamps, coins, etc.
    I am not a collector, and I know of this only peripherally. But you might
    want to do some internet searches on the subject of collecting shares.

    I don't know if you will have to physically turn in your share, or if they
    can figure out what you own now and somehow cancel the share so that you can
    keep it, and ultimately sell it to a collector.

    A 40-yr-old share probably isn't that valuable to collectors, but you never
    know. I certainly don't.

    Meanwhile, I'm guessing that a single share of AT&T from 40 years ago is
    probably worth a nice little sum, in terms of all of the other companies it
    represents now. Except for Lucent. I got burned buying some of their stock.
    Don't get me started.
     
    DP, Jan 5, 2007
    #3
  4. Hank Arnold

    Andrew Guest

    DP wrote:
    > .... Except for Lucent. I got burned buying some of their stock. Don't get
    > me started.


    Depends of course when you bought Lucent! I bought some Lucent in October
    2002 at 0.66 share and sold in April of 2006 at 3.06 share. 363% net gain
    in less than 4 years. It was my best 'pick' ever!

    Now, I also bought Enron at $84/share in September 2000, and never sold!
    Became worthless in November 2004. So that was a infinite percentage loss!
    (Well, I am now a party in about 5 class action law suits!). My worse pick
    ever. "Don't get me started!"

    Sorry about this post, I couldn't resist. We all have our stories, don't
    we? It's what makes the market so much fun.

    ---------------------------------------------------------
    Regards -

    - Andrew
     
    Andrew, Jan 5, 2007
    #4
  5. Hank Arnold

    Andrew Guest

    Andrew wrote:
    > So that was a infinite percentage loss!


    Maybe that's 100% loss - lost my head!
    --
    -------------------------------------------------------------
    Regards -

    - Andrew
     
    Andrew, Jan 5, 2007
    #5
  6. Hank Arnold

    Oilcan Guest

    Don't forgot unclaimed funds - dividends. These monies were escheated
    (turned over) to the state of the last known residence (usually based
    on the mailing address on record).

    This is somewhat a history as I know it....(it could be wrong).......

    NYNEX (New York New England Exchange), Ameritech (Midwest), BellSouth,
    Pacific Telesis (California and Nevada), USWest (mostly rural US),
    Southwestern Bell (SBC) (Texas, OK and KS?), Bell Atlantic, plus AT&T
    (1984) = 1984 Breakup

    NYNEX and Bell Alantic merged in 1997 as did SBC and Pacific Bell

    Ameritech became part of SBC along the line.
    Pacific Telesis spun off Pacific Wireless which merged with VidoPhone
    (spelling)
    AT&T (1984) spun off NCR, Lucent Technologies (former Bell Labs)
    Lucent Technologies spun off Agere Systems (mostly worthless stocks
    today although they have market value)
    Lucent Technolgoies has recently merged with another company (French)
    Bell Atlantic, I believe is now Verizon.
    US West, I believe is now Qwest.

    I would make the assumption since the existing AT&T is the suvivor of
    AT&T (1984), you could start with their shareholder services as they
    should have the Corporate records......

    Andrew wrote:
    > Andrew wrote:
    > > So that was a infinite percentage loss!

    >
    > Maybe that's 100% loss - lost my head!
    > --
    > -------------------------------------------------------------
    > Regards -
    >
    > - Andrew
     
    Oilcan, Jan 6, 2007
    #6
  7. Hank Arnold

    Hank Arnold Guest

    Excellent input, RC.... Thanks for taking the time. The certificate is
    in my name (Care of my aunt) with my aunt's address. Since she's been
    dead fro almost 7 years and hadn't lived at that address fro over 25
    years, I haven't a clue what happened to all the dividends....

    I know what has expired in the time since the breakup. My mother in law
    gave my son a bunch of AT&T Corp socks and I've tracked them for the
    past 20+ years. We started with 1 stock, got around 10 and now have, I
    think, 3 (at&t, Verizon, Agere and the Idearc)... it's been a wild ride.....

    I'll be sure to let you all know what happens.....

    Regards,
    Hank Arnold

    R. C. White wrote:
    > Hi, Hank.
    >
    > Congratulations! And condolences.
    >
    > Just two days ago I answered a related question here (see: Corp.
    > acquisition recording transactions question.) about AT&T's acquisition
    > of BellSouth. In the process, I found this web page, which should lead
    > you to what you need:
    > http://www.att.com/gen/investor-relations?pid=7983
    >
    > Click the button under Cost Basis Worksheets for AT&T Corp. shares.
    >
    > Oh, that it were really that simple! Since your certificate predates
    > the 1984 breakup, you probably should start on this page:
    > http://www.att.com/gen/investor-relations?pid=7958
    >
    > Note the subtle but very significant difference between "AT&T Inc." and
    > "AT&T Corp." "Corp." was the 100+ year old company that went through
    > the divestiture in 1984, then survived until 2005. "Inc." is the new
    > name for the former Southwestern Bell Corporation (SBC), which was spun
    > off from Corp. in 1984, but then bought Corp. in 2005 and changed its
    > own name from SBC to AT&T Inc. The "Corp." name disappeared in the 2005
    > transaction - but that was the company whose share certificate you now
    > hold.
    >
    > Your problem involves calculating the current basis of the AT&T Inc.
    > shares represented by that certificate, of course. But you also must
    > determine what happened to the shares of Ameritech, BellSouth, NYNEX,
    > SBC, etc., that should have been received in 1984! None of those shares
    > have been sold, obviously. Your one certificate now represents shares
    > in all those former subsidiaries. But it gets worse, because each of
    > those companies went through splits, spin-offs and mergers during the 23
    > years after 1/1/84. For example, your certificate represents ownership
    > of some number of shares of Lucent, NCR, Comcast and many other
    > corporations. The "basis" of each of those shares relates back to the
    > basis in that original AT&T Corp. certificate, and the basis of that
    > certificate today must be reduced by each of the spun-off securities.
    >
    > If that certificate is for a million shares, you can afford to hire a
    > pro to do all this. If it is for just one 1966 share, it probably is
    > worth a lot today, but not enough to pay a pro, so you'll have to do it
    > all yourself. But the same steps are required for one share as for a
    > million. Maybe the accumulated dividends (including proceeds from sales
    > of fractional shares) will make it worthwhile!
    >
    > The good news is that there were millions of AT&T shareholders, and many
    > of them were "widows and orphans" who had tucked away their shares and
    > forgot about them. Old certificates still turn up fairly often, I
    > suspect, and there probably are pros who make a career of helping people
    > like yourself who get stuck with the problem. Ask your broker (not the
    > young kid who went to work there last year, but the grey-haired old guy
    > who has been there forever and is about to retire). Don't ask him to
    > figure it out; just ask whom you should contact. I'm sure that AT&T
    > itself has a crew that works full-time on these problems. That is the
    > crew that works behind that web page.
    >
    > If this share is part of the estate of a deceased person, your job may
    > be cut in half. Inherited shares usually get a new tax basis and
    > holding period based on their fair market value at the date of death of
    > the owner. So you don't have to track down the original basis and do all
    > the math to apportion it to today's holdings. But you do still need to
    > gather up all the shares and fractional shares that should have been
    > received over the years and value those at date of death. Then, if the
    > death was not very recent, you will need to track developments since the
    > death.
    >
    > Good luck, Hank. And please let us know what you find out!
    >
    > RC
     
    Hank Arnold, Jan 6, 2007
    #7
  8. Hank Arnold

    Hank Arnold Guest

    Interesting.....

    I know about growth... the same aunt gave ma a share of GE stock when I
    graduated from High School (1964). I completely forgot about it. When I
    found it later, I was able to get with GE and found that the dividend
    checks had been cashed for years by someone forging my signature. I was
    in Vietnam at the time and never followed up with them other than to
    tell them about it and to change the address of record. I started to
    DRIP it about 15 years ago and that one share (worth about $90 bucks
    originally) is now worth over $4.5K....

    It's gonna be interesting....

    Regards,
    Hank Arnold

    DP wrote:
    > "Hank Arnold" <> wrote in message
    > news:yXqnh.366$...
    >> I recently had to close out a safety deposit box and found a 40 year old
    >> certificate for the original "Ma Bell" (American Telephone & Telegraph"
    >> company.
    >>
    >> I can turn it into my financial adviser/broker and let them figure it out,
    >> but I'm curious as to whether I can somehow figure out what that share has
    >> turned into (and what it is worth. We're talking the big breakup, more
    >> breakups, spin-offs, acquisitions, etc.... Also, I don't recall getting
    >> any dividends (at least in memory). What do I do???
    >> --

    >
    >
    > Besides R.C. White's excellent response to you, don't forget that the
    > physical share itself may have some value.
    > There are people who like to collect that old paper the way people collect
    > stamps, coins, etc.
    > I am not a collector, and I know of this only peripherally. But you might
    > want to do some internet searches on the subject of collecting shares.
    >
    > I don't know if you will have to physically turn in your share, or if they
    > can figure out what you own now and somehow cancel the share so that you can
    > keep it, and ultimately sell it to a collector.
    >
    > A 40-yr-old share probably isn't that valuable to collectors, but you never
    > know. I certainly don't.
    >
    > Meanwhile, I'm guessing that a single share of AT&T from 40 years ago is
    > probably worth a nice little sum, in terms of all of the other companies it
    > represents now. Except for Lucent. I got burned buying some of their stock.
    > Don't get me started.
    >
    >
    >
     
    Hank Arnold, Jan 6, 2007
    #8
  9. Hank Arnold

    DP Guest

    "Oilcan" <> wrote in message
    news:...


    > Lucent Technolgoies has recently merged with another company (French)


    Alcatel.

    > Bell Atlantic, I believe is now Verizon.
    > US West, I believe is now Qwest.


    And don't forget that BellSouth and ATT (the surviving smaller company from
    the breakup) just merged.
     
    DP, Jan 6, 2007
    #9
  10. Hank Arnold

    Jim - NN7K Guest

    As far as you got -- Lucent, now is part of
    Alcatel ("ALU"- NYSE), and also to confuse
    matters, SBC recently aquired AT&T (and then
    changed its Name, to ATT & it's symbol, to "T")!
    (Translation: THE company that
    spun off those bells, Was AQUIRED by one of it's
    spinoff's!) Also, if memory serves, U.S. WEST
    spun off (think Media 1 (CABLE TV), which was
    in turn absorbed by Frontier , which , in turn
    became part of the Global Crossing Fiasco)!
    confuseing, isn't it ??? :( Jim



    Oilcan wrote:
    > Don't forgot unclaimed funds - dividends. These monies were escheated
    > (turned over) to the state of the last known residence (usually based
    > on the mailing address on record).
    >
    > This is somewhat a history as I know it....(it could be wrong).......
    >
    > NYNEX (New York New England Exchange), Ameritech (Midwest), BellSouth,
    > Pacific Telesis (California and Nevada), USWest (mostly rural US),
    > Southwestern Bell (SBC) (Texas, OK and KS?), Bell Atlantic, plus AT&T
    > (1984) = 1984 Breakup
    >
    > NYNEX and Bell Alantic merged in 1997 as did SBC and Pacific Bell
    >
    > Ameritech became part of SBC along the line.
    > Pacific Telesis spun off Pacific Wireless which merged with VidoPhone
    > (spelling)
    > AT&T (1984) spun off NCR, Lucent Technologies (former Bell Labs)
    > Lucent Technologies spun off Agere Systems (mostly worthless stocks
    > today although they have market value)
    > Lucent Technolgoies has recently merged with another company (French)
    > Bell Atlantic, I believe is now Verizon.
    > US West, I believe is now Qwest.
    >
    > I would make the assumption since the existing AT&T is the suvivor of
    > AT&T (1984), you could start with their shareholder services as they
    > should have the Corporate records......
    >
    > Andrew wrote:
    >> Andrew wrote:
    >>> So that was a infinite percentage loss!

    >> Maybe that's 100% loss - lost my head!
    >> --
    >> -------------------------------------------------------------
    >> Regards -
    >>
    >> - Andrew

    >
     
    Jim - NN7K, Jan 7, 2007
    #10
  11. Hank Arnold

    Jim - NN7K Guest

    P.S. In this regard, you need to also check your
    (and your Aunt's) home state ESCHEAT Depts. , as
    they may have captured those funds "in your (or
    her) name(s). Most states have these (if not all)
    and are there to "Protect" you (read that - steal
    those UNCLAIMED funds)! Found one from 40 years
    ago, in New York for $200.00-- and then cost me
    $50 to recover that money! such a deal! Try
    a google search for unclaimed funds in your state,
    as well as hers! Jim

    Hank Arnold wrote:
    > Excellent input, RC.... Thanks for taking the time. The certificate is
    > in my name (Care of my aunt) with my aunt's address. Since she's been
    > dead fro almost 7 years and hadn't lived at that address fro over 25
    > years, I haven't a clue what happened to all the dividends....


    >>
    >> RC
     
    Jim - NN7K, Jan 7, 2007
    #11
  12. Hank Arnold

    Hank Arnold Guest

    Good point... Thanks...

    Regards,
    Hank Arnold

    Jim - NN7K wrote:
    > P.S. In this regard, you need to also check your (and your Aunt's) home
    > state ESCHEAT Depts. , as
    > they may have captured those funds "in your (or her) name(s). Most
    > states have these (if not all)
    > and are there to "Protect" you (read that - steal
    > those UNCLAIMED funds)! Found one from 40 years
    > ago, in New York for $200.00-- and then cost me
    > $50 to recover that money! such a deal! Try
    > a google search for unclaimed funds in your state,
    > as well as hers! Jim
    >
    > Hank Arnold wrote:
    >> Excellent input, RC.... Thanks for taking the time. The certificate is
    >> in my name (Care of my aunt) with my aunt's address. Since she's been
    >> dead fro almost 7 years and hadn't lived at that address fro over 25
    >> years, I haven't a clue what happened to all the dividends....

    >
    >>>
    >>> RC
     
    Hank Arnold, Jan 7, 2007
    #12
  13. Hank Arnold

    Oilcan Guest

    Most states should allow you to collect unclaimed funds without a fee.
    Fill out the forms and send the documentation.......
    Hank Arnold wrote:
    > Good point... Thanks...
    >
    > Regards,
    > Hank Arnold
    >
    > Jim - NN7K wrote:
    > > P.S. In this regard, you need to also check your (and your Aunt's) home
    > > state ESCHEAT Depts. , as
    > > they may have captured those funds "in your (or her) name(s). Most
    > > states have these (if not all)
    > > and are there to "Protect" you (read that - steal
    > > those UNCLAIMED funds)! Found one from 40 years
    > > ago, in New York for $200.00-- and then cost me
    > > $50 to recover that money! such a deal! Try
    > > a google search for unclaimed funds in your state,
    > > as well as hers! Jim
    > >
    > > Hank Arnold wrote:
    > >> Excellent input, RC.... Thanks for taking the time. The certificate is
    > >> in my name (Care of my aunt) with my aunt's address. Since she's been
    > >> dead fro almost 7 years and hadn't lived at that address fro over 25
    > >> years, I haven't a clue what happened to all the dividends....

    > >
    > >>>
    > >>> RC
     
    Oilcan, Jan 7, 2007
    #13
  14. Hank Arnold

    Hank Arnold Guest

    I found an asset on the Mass web site. It was "Henry F. Arnold" in Hyde
    Park, Mass. The address my aunt used was her address in Reading, Mass. I
    submitted a claim anyway, just in case, but mostly because my great
    grandfather, grandfather and uncle had that name (I'm "Frederick" and
    they were "Freeman").....

    Regards,
    Hank Arnold

    Oilcan wrote:
    > Most states should allow you to collect unclaimed funds without a fee.
    > Fill out the forms and send the documentation.......
    > Hank Arnold wrote:
    >> Good point... Thanks...
    >>
    >> Regards,
    >> Hank Arnold
    >>
    >> Jim - NN7K wrote:
    >>> P.S. In this regard, you need to also check your (and your Aunt's) home
    >>> state ESCHEAT Depts. , as
    >>> they may have captured those funds "in your (or her) name(s). Most
    >>> states have these (if not all)
    >>> and are there to "Protect" you (read that - steal
    >>> those UNCLAIMED funds)! Found one from 40 years
    >>> ago, in New York for $200.00-- and then cost me
    >>> $50 to recover that money! such a deal! Try
    >>> a google search for unclaimed funds in your state,
    >>> as well as hers! Jim
    >>>
    >>> Hank Arnold wrote:
    >>>> Excellent input, RC.... Thanks for taking the time. The certificate is
    >>>> in my name (Care of my aunt) with my aunt's address. Since she's been
    >>>> dead fro almost 7 years and hadn't lived at that address fro over 25
    >>>> years, I haven't a clue what happened to all the dividends....
    >>>>> RC

    >
     
    Hank Arnold, Jan 8, 2007
    #14
  15. "Oilcan" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > Don't forgot unclaimed funds - dividends. These monies were escheated
    > (turned over) to the state of the last known residence (usually based
    > on the mailing address on record).
    >
    > This is somewhat a history as I know it....(it could be wrong).......
    >
    > NYNEX (New York New England Exchange), Ameritech (Midwest), BellSouth,
    > Pacific Telesis (California and Nevada), USWest (mostly rural US),
    > Southwestern Bell (SBC) (Texas, OK and KS?), Bell Atlantic, plus AT&T
    > (1984) = 1984 Breakup
    >
    > NYNEX and Bell Alantic merged in 1997

    ....and became Verizon...

    > ...as did SBC and Pacific Bell
    >
    > Ameritech became part of SBC along the line.
    > Pacific Telesis spun off Pacific Wireless which merged with VidoPhone
    > (spelling)

    That is Vodafone.

    > AT&T (1984) spun off NCR, Lucent Technologies (former Bell Labs)
    > Lucent Technologies spun off Agere Systems (mostly worthless stocks
    > today although they have market value)
    > Lucent Technolgoies has recently merged with another company (French)

    Alcatel-Lucent

    > Bell Atlantic, I believe is now Verizon.
    > US West, I believe is now Qwest.


    US West spun off MediaOne just before it merged into Qwest. MediaOne was
    passed around like a hot potato to have portions of what was left merged
    into Comcast.

    >

    AT&T(1984) spun off AT&T Wireless which was eventually merged into Cingular
    (a privately-held partnership of SBC and others) in a cash buyout.
    AT&T(1984) spun off AT&T Broadband which then merged into Comcast.

    > I would make the assumption since the existing AT&T is the suvivor of
    > AT&T (1984), you could start with their shareholder services as they
    > should have the Corporate records......
    >


    By my rough guess, depending on how many shares you started with, you should
    have
    Several shares of the New AT&T
    Some shares of Verizon
    Some shares of Qwest
    Several shares of NCR
    A couple shares of Alcatel-Lucent
    Possibly a share or two of Vodafone
    A handfull of shares of Comcast
    And a large headache trying to track down back dividends, cash in lieu of
    partial shares, and a couple of other minor spin-offs that may have been
    missed in the above.

    > Andrew wrote:
    >> Andrew wrote:
    >> > So that was a infinite percentage loss!

    >>
    >> Maybe that's 100% loss - lost my head!
    >> --
    >> -------------------------------------------------------------
    >> Regards -
    >>
    >> - Andrew

    >
     
    Richard Barndt, Jan 8, 2007
    #15
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