800 HSBC clients told to pay up for Swiss tax dodge

Discussion in 'UK Finance' started by sufaud, Sep 4, 2011.

  1. sufaud

    sufaud Guest

    800 HSBC clients told to pay up for Swiss tax dodge

    Robert Watts. Sunday Times. London (UK): Sep 4, 2011. pg. 1

    NEARLY 800 wealthy British clients at HSBC are being investigated by
    the taxman for "serious tax fraud" after stashing money in Swiss bank
    accounts.

    Thousands more of HSBC's customers face having their personal tax
    affairs probed unless they come forward soon, as HM Revenue & Customs
    combs the records of 7,000 customers that were stolen by a former
    member of the bank's Swiss staff.

    Accountants acting for those already under investigation by HMRC say
    those embroiled include celebrities and prominent figures in the City.

    "We are talking about household names here," said one accountant. HMRC
    has sent letters announcing the launch of an investigation to almost
    800 of the bank's clients in recent months.

    "You are suspected of serious tax fraud," the letter reads. "We will
    undertake an investigation into your personal tax affairs. We will
    also undertake an investigation of the tax affairs of any company or
    other entity that may have an impact on your personal tax affairs."

    A senior source at HMRC said it expects to raise hundreds of millions
    of pounds for the exchequer from these investigations.

    The names and account details were garnered from the "Falciani List",
    records pilfered by disgruntled former IT worker Herve Falciani.

    None of the individuals affected will be able to make use of the
    recent deal struck between the British government and the Swiss
    authorities. Under the pact, people with assets hidden in Swiss bank
    accounts will be landed with a one-off tax bill to settle their
    arrears, plus a withholding tax from 2013 onwards. HMRC is conducting
    the investigation under "Code of Practice 9" -- a probe of an
    individual's financial affairs over the past 20 years. Those found
    guilty of tax evasion face paying any due tax, plus interest. They
    will also incur a penalty of up to 200% of the outstanding tax.

    Fiona Fernie, tax investigation partner at BDO, the accountancy firm,
    said: "I strongly advise any HSBC customers who believe they could be
    on this list, but have not yet received one of these letters, to
    approach the Revenue and make a disclosure straight away."

    The bank said: "HSBC does not condone tax evasion and seeks to comply
    with the letter and spirit of the law in all the countries and
    territories in which it operates."

    Credit: Robert Watts Economics Correspondent
    [Illustration]
    Caption: An invitation you can't refuse
     
    sufaud, Sep 4, 2011
    #1
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  2. sufaud

    Chris Blunt Guest

    On Thu, 08 Sep 2011 06:28:28 -0400, The Revd <>
    wrote:

    >On Sun, 4 Sep 2011 09:24:22 -0700 (PDT), sufaud <>
    >wrote:
    >
    >>800 HSBC clients told to pay up for Swiss tax dodge
    >>
    >>Robert Watts. Sunday Times. London (UK): Sep 4, 2011. pg. 1
    >>
    >>NEARLY 800 wealthy British clients at HSBC are being investigated by
    >>the taxman for "serious tax fraud" after stashing money in Swiss bank
    >>accounts.
    >>
    >>Thousands more of HSBC's customers face having their personal tax
    >>affairs probed unless they come forward soon, as HM Revenue & Customs
    >>combs the records of 7,000 customers that were stolen by a former
    >>member of the bank's Swiss staff.
    >>
    >>Accountants acting for those already under investigation by HMRC say
    >>those embroiled include celebrities and prominent figures in the City.
    >>
    >>"We are talking about household names here," said one accountant. HMRC
    >>has sent letters announcing the launch of an investigation to almost
    >>800 of the bank's clients in recent months.
    >>
    >>"You are suspected of serious tax fraud," the letter reads. "We will
    >>undertake an investigation into your personal tax affairs. We will
    >>also undertake an investigation of the tax affairs of any company or
    >>other entity that may have an impact on your personal tax affairs."
    >>
    >>A senior source at HMRC said it expects to raise hundreds of millions
    >>of pounds for the exchequer from these investigations.
    >>
    >>The names and account details were garnered from the "Falciani List",
    >>records pilfered by disgruntled former IT worker Herve Falciani.
    >>
    >>None of the individuals affected will be able to make use of the
    >>recent deal struck between the British government and the Swiss
    >>authorities. Under the pact, people with assets hidden in Swiss bank
    >>accounts will be landed with a one-off tax bill to settle their
    >>arrears, plus a withholding tax from 2013 onwards. HMRC is conducting
    >>the investigation under "Code of Practice 9" -- a probe of an
    >>individual's financial affairs over the past 20 years. Those found
    >>guilty of tax evasion face paying any due tax, plus interest. They
    >>will also incur a penalty of up to 200% of the outstanding tax.
    >>
    >>Fiona Fernie, tax investigation partner at BDO, the accountancy firm,
    >>said: "I strongly advise any HSBC customers who believe they could be
    >>on this list, but have not yet received one of these letters, to
    >>approach the Revenue and make a disclosure straight away."
    >>
    >>The bank said: "HSBC does not condone tax evasion and seeks to comply
    >>with the letter and spirit of the law in all the countries and
    >>territories in which it operates."
    >>
    >>Credit: Robert Watts Economics Correspondent
    >>[Illustration]
    >>Caption: An invitation you can't refuse

    >
    >Switzerland signed up for the European Savings Directive, 2005. UK
    >residents' accounts became subject to withholding tax on savings
    >income. The smart money left.


    I would have thought that anyone with any significant amount of money
    could fairly easily set themselves up with a mailing address outside
    of Europe and use that as a contact address for the Swiss bank to use.

    Nobody from the bank is going to come around to actually check that
    you live where you say you do.

    Chris
     
    Chris Blunt, Sep 8, 2011
    #2
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  3. sufaud

    tim.... Guest

    "The Revd" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > On Thu, 08 Sep 2011 18:44:05 +0800, Chris Blunt <>
    > wrote:
    >
    >>On Thu, 08 Sep 2011 06:28:28 -0400, The Revd <>
    >>wrote:
    >>
    >>>On Sun, 4 Sep 2011 09:24:22 -0700 (PDT), sufaud <>
    >>>wrote:
    >>>
    >>>>800 HSBC clients told to pay up for Swiss tax dodge
    >>>>
    >>>>Robert Watts. Sunday Times. London (UK): Sep 4, 2011. pg. 1
    >>>>
    >>>>NEARLY 800 wealthy British clients at HSBC are being investigated by
    >>>>the taxman for "serious tax fraud" after stashing money in Swiss bank
    >>>>accounts.
    >>>>
    >>>>Thousands more of HSBC's customers face having their personal tax
    >>>>affairs probed unless they come forward soon, as HM Revenue & Customs
    >>>>combs the records of 7,000 customers that were stolen by a former
    >>>>member of the bank's Swiss staff.
    >>>>
    >>>>Accountants acting for those already under investigation by HMRC say
    >>>>those embroiled include celebrities and prominent figures in the City.
    >>>>
    >>>>"We are talking about household names here," said one accountant. HMRC
    >>>>has sent letters announcing the launch of an investigation to almost
    >>>>800 of the bank's clients in recent months.
    >>>>
    >>>>"You are suspected of serious tax fraud," the letter reads. "We will
    >>>>undertake an investigation into your personal tax affairs. We will
    >>>>also undertake an investigation of the tax affairs of any company or
    >>>>other entity that may have an impact on your personal tax affairs."
    >>>>
    >>>>A senior source at HMRC said it expects to raise hundreds of millions
    >>>>of pounds for the exchequer from these investigations.
    >>>>
    >>>>The names and account details were garnered from the "Falciani List",
    >>>>records pilfered by disgruntled former IT worker Herve Falciani.
    >>>>
    >>>>None of the individuals affected will be able to make use of the
    >>>>recent deal struck between the British government and the Swiss
    >>>>authorities. Under the pact, people with assets hidden in Swiss bank
    >>>>accounts will be landed with a one-off tax bill to settle their
    >>>>arrears, plus a withholding tax from 2013 onwards. HMRC is conducting
    >>>>the investigation under "Code of Practice 9" -- a probe of an
    >>>>individual's financial affairs over the past 20 years. Those found
    >>>>guilty of tax evasion face paying any due tax, plus interest. They
    >>>>will also incur a penalty of up to 200% of the outstanding tax.
    >>>>
    >>>>Fiona Fernie, tax investigation partner at BDO, the accountancy firm,
    >>>>said: "I strongly advise any HSBC customers who believe they could be
    >>>>on this list, but have not yet received one of these letters, to
    >>>>approach the Revenue and make a disclosure straight away."
    >>>>
    >>>>The bank said: "HSBC does not condone tax evasion and seeks to comply
    >>>>with the letter and spirit of the law in all the countries and
    >>>>territories in which it operates."
    >>>>
    >>>>Credit: Robert Watts Economics Correspondent
    >>>>[Illustration]
    >>>>Caption: An invitation you can't refuse
    >>>
    >>>Switzerland signed up for the European Savings Directive, 2005. UK
    >>>residents' accounts became subject to withholding tax on savings
    >>>income. The smart money left.

    >>
    >>I would have thought that anyone with any significant amount of money
    >>could fairly easily set themselves up with a mailing address outside
    >>of Europe and use that as a contact address for the Swiss bank to use.

    >
    > A mailing address is no longer sufficient. The days of the numbered
    > Swiss account are over.


    Not really. They are still useful depositories for dodgy money, all that
    you lose is the ability to gain tax free interest on that dodgy money

    tim
     
    tim...., Sep 8, 2011
    #3
  4. sufaud

    Charlie Guest

    On 08/09/2011 14:47, tim.... wrote:

    > Not really. They are still useful depositories for dodgy money, all that
    > you lose is the ability to gain tax free interest on that dodgy money


    And since the interest payable is 10% of 3/8ths of the cube root of eff
    all, it's no great loss at all. I used to have the Swiss private banks
    as clients, and they were the world's worst investors because they
    really didn't need to be any good. Look at it this way:

    You are a South American cattle-baron. You somehow get your wealth out
    of a flaky country with a Mickey Mouse currency subject to massive
    inflation and devaluations - this was, after all, the 80s and early 90s
    - and into Geneva, quite possibly in the form of jewellery and lumps of
    gold cunningly cast as gigantic belt-buckles. You are more than happy
    to convert into Swiss Francs, which you know will hold their value. You
    don't want your bank speculating on your behalf in equities. You want
    cash, even with the possibility of only fractional interest, or the most
    solid of government or corporate bonds.

    A client of mine once went off for a couple of weeks skiing, and didn't
    come back for five weeks. Everything was delightfully dull, and nothing
    could go wrong. His clients were all delighted with him.
     
    Charlie, Sep 8, 2011
    #4
  5. sufaud

    Chris Blunt Guest

    On Thu, 08 Sep 2011 07:55:58 -0400, The Revd <>
    wrote:

    >>>
    >>>Switzerland signed up for the European Savings Directive, 2005. UK
    >>>residents' accounts became subject to withholding tax on savings
    >>>income. The smart money left.

    >>
    >>I would have thought that anyone with any significant amount of money
    >>could fairly easily set themselves up with a mailing address outside
    >>of Europe and use that as a contact address for the Swiss bank to use.

    >
    >A mailing address is no longer sufficient. The days of the numbered
    >Swiss account are over.


    Of course they will want identity as well, but that is not relevant as
    far as liability to tax is concerned. They use the address they have
    on record for you to decide whether you are a UK (or EU) resident, so
    that decides whether they will deduct withholding tax or not.

    This has nothing to do with numbered accounts.

    >>Nobody from the bank is going to come around to actually check that
    >>you live where you say you do.

    >
    >But they will want to verify your residence status to comply with the
    >EU Savings Directive.


    Right, but for those with enough money to hide it's easy enough to
    come up with suitable evidence to show residency almost anywhere you
    want.

    Chris
     
    Chris Blunt, Sep 9, 2011
    #5
  6. sufaud

    Chris Blunt Guest

    On Fri, 09 Sep 2011 08:13:54 -0400, The Revd <>
    wrote:

    >On Fri, 09 Sep 2011 19:59:58 +0800, Chris Blunt <>
    >wrote:
    >
    >>On Thu, 08 Sep 2011 07:55:58 -0400, The Revd <>
    >>wrote:
    >>
    >>>>>
    >>>>>Switzerland signed up for the European Savings Directive, 2005. UK
    >>>>>residents' accounts became subject to withholding tax on savings
    >>>>>income. The smart money left.
    >>>>
    >>>>I would have thought that anyone with any significant amount of money
    >>>>could fairly easily set themselves up with a mailing address outside
    >>>>of Europe and use that as a contact address for the Swiss bank to use.
    >>>
    >>>A mailing address is no longer sufficient. The days of the numbered
    >>>Swiss account are over.

    >>
    >>Of course they will want identity as well, but that is not relevant as
    >>far as liability to tax is concerned. They use the address they have
    >>on record for you to decide whether you are a UK (or EU) resident, so
    >>that decides whether they will deduct withholding tax or not.

    >
    >The mailing address on record is no indication of residence status.


    If they don't use the address you have shown them you live at, then
    what do you believe they use to determine residence?

    >>This has nothing to do with numbered accounts.
    >>
    >>>>Nobody from the bank is going to come around to actually check that
    >>>>you live where you say you do.
    >>>
    >>>But they will want to verify your residence status to comply with the
    >>>EU Savings Directive.

    >>
    >>Right, but for those with enough money to hide it's easy enough to
    >>come up with suitable evidence to show residency almost anywhere you
    >>want.

    >
    >Perhaps, pre-2005. There is much more due diligence these days.


    Such as? All they ask for is something like an electricity or
    telephone bill. Either of those can be fairly easily arranged with a
    little bit of effort.
     
    Chris Blunt, Sep 9, 2011
    #6
  7. sufaud

    Guest

    The Revd <> wrote:
    > >>The mailing address on record is no indication of residence status.

    > >
    > >If they don't use the address you have shown them you live at, then
    > >what do you believe they use to determine residence?

    >
    > The primary identification (passport) is typically used for
    > establishing residence. The country of citizenship is usually assumed
    > to be the country of residence in the absence of evidence to the
    > contrary (resident visa in the country of claimed residence or other
    > resident documentation).
    >

    A UK passport in particular (and I think this may be true of other
    countries) doesn't prove residence at all. We recently bought a boat
    in Belgium and although the Belgian system was quite happy to allow
    any EU resident to register a boat a UK passport was no use. We had
    to get a letter signed by a JP to say that we really did live where we
    said we did. A Belgian bank wanted much what a UK bank requires to
    prove residency - utility bills etc., again a passport was of no use
    at all.


    --
    Chris Green
     
    , Sep 9, 2011
    #7
  8. sufaud

    Chris Blunt Guest

    On Fri, 09 Sep 2011 10:38:23 -0400, The Revd <>
    wrote:

    >On Fri, 09 Sep 2011 20:47:16 +0800, Chris Blunt <>
    >wrote:
    >
    >>On Fri, 09 Sep 2011 08:13:54 -0400, The Revd <>
    >>wrote:
    >>
    >>>On Fri, 09 Sep 2011 19:59:58 +0800, Chris Blunt <>
    >>>wrote:
    >>>
    >>>>On Thu, 08 Sep 2011 07:55:58 -0400, The Revd <>
    >>>>wrote:
    >>>>
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>Switzerland signed up for the European Savings Directive, 2005. UK
    >>>>>>>residents' accounts became subject to withholding tax on savings
    >>>>>>>income. The smart money left.
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>>I would have thought that anyone with any significant amount of money
    >>>>>>could fairly easily set themselves up with a mailing address outside
    >>>>>>of Europe and use that as a contact address for the Swiss bank to use.
    >>>>>
    >>>>>A mailing address is no longer sufficient. The days of the numbered
    >>>>>Swiss account are over.
    >>>>
    >>>>Of course they will want identity as well, but that is not relevant as
    >>>>far as liability to tax is concerned. They use the address they have
    >>>>on record for you to decide whether you are a UK (or EU) resident, so
    >>>>that decides whether they will deduct withholding tax or not.
    >>>
    >>>The mailing address on record is no indication of residence status.

    >>
    >>If they don't use the address you have shown them you live at, then
    >>what do you believe they use to determine residence?

    >
    >The primary identification (passport) is typically used for
    >establishing residence. The country of citizenship is usually assumed
    >to be the country of residence in the absence of evidence to the
    >contrary (resident visa in the country of claimed residence or other
    >resident documentation).


    Nonsense. I have a UK passport but I've lived overseas for many years
    now. I've held accounts with several offshore banks during that time,
    and none of them have assumed I'm a UK resident as a result of holding
    a UK passport. In every case they have based it on my claimed country
    of residence, and I've never needed to produce anything more than a
    couple of utility bills for them to verify that.


    >>>>This has nothing to do with numbered accounts.
    >>>>
    >>>>>>Nobody from the bank is going to come around to actually check that
    >>>>>>you live where you say you do.
    >>>>>
    >>>>>But they will want to verify your residence status to comply with the
    >>>>>EU Savings Directive.
    >>>>
    >>>>Right, but for those with enough money to hide it's easy enough to
    >>>>come up with suitable evidence to show residency almost anywhere you
    >>>>want.
    >>>
    >>>Perhaps, pre-2005. There is much more due diligence these days.

    >>
    >>Such as? All they ask for is something like an electricity or
    >>telephone bill. Either of those can be fairly easily arranged with a
    >>little bit of effort.

    >
    >A utility bill doesn't usually cut it. I've been through this myself.


    Then I suggest you take a look at the list of requirements here from
    HSBC's offshore banking unit.

    http://www.offshore.hsbc.com/1/2/popups/online-app-help

    Either an electricity or telephone bill are perfectly acceptable as
    proof of address. Either of those can be set up with little difficulty
    by anyone who is sufficiently interested in doing so.
     
    Chris Blunt, Sep 10, 2011
    #8
  9. sufaud

    Chris Blunt Guest

    On Thu, 15 Sep 2011 14:02:43 -0400, The Revd <>
    wrote:

    >On Sat, 10 Sep 2011 14:10:37 +0800, Chris Blunt <>
    >wrote:
    >
    >>On Fri, 09 Sep 2011 10:38:23 -0400, The Revd <>
    >>wrote:
    >>
    >>>On Fri, 09 Sep 2011 20:47:16 +0800, Chris Blunt <>
    >>>wrote:
    >>>
    >>>>On Fri, 09 Sep 2011 08:13:54 -0400, The Revd <>
    >>>>wrote:
    >>>>
    >>>>>On Fri, 09 Sep 2011 19:59:58 +0800, Chris Blunt <>
    >>>>>wrote:
    >>>>>
    >>>>>>On Thu, 08 Sep 2011 07:55:58 -0400, The Revd <>
    >>>>>>wrote:
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>>Switzerland signed up for the European Savings Directive, 2005. UK
    >>>>>>>>>residents' accounts became subject to withholding tax on savings
    >>>>>>>>>income. The smart money left.
    >>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>I would have thought that anyone with any significant amount of money
    >>>>>>>>could fairly easily set themselves up with a mailing address outside
    >>>>>>>>of Europe and use that as a contact address for the Swiss bank to use.
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>A mailing address is no longer sufficient. The days of the numbered
    >>>>>>>Swiss account are over.
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>>Of course they will want identity as well, but that is not relevant as
    >>>>>>far as liability to tax is concerned. They use the address they have
    >>>>>>on record for you to decide whether you are a UK (or EU) resident, so
    >>>>>>that decides whether they will deduct withholding tax or not.
    >>>>>
    >>>>>The mailing address on record is no indication of residence status.
    >>>>
    >>>>If they don't use the address you have shown them you live at, then
    >>>>what do you believe they use to determine residence?
    >>>
    >>>The primary identification (passport) is typically used for
    >>>establishing residence. The country of citizenship is usually assumed
    >>>to be the country of residence in the absence of evidence to the
    >>>contrary (resident visa in the country of claimed residence or other
    >>>resident documentation).

    >>
    >>Nonsense. I have a UK passport but I've lived overseas for many years
    >>now.

    >
    >Same here.
    >
    >> I've held accounts with several offshore banks during that time,
    >>and none of them have assumed I'm a UK resident as a result of holding
    >>a UK passport. In every case they have based it on my claimed country
    >>of residence, and I've never needed to produce anything more than a
    >>couple of utility bills for them to verify that.

    >
    >All the banks I've dealt with have required proof of residence: real
    >proof, not just some trivial utility bill.


    What constitutes "real proof"?

    Whatever is required is not difficult to produce for someone who has
    enough money to hide to make it worthwhile doing. I live in the
    Philippines and you can get a permanent residence visa here simply by
    putting US$10,000 in a deposit account in a local bank.

    Even if you had to take out a rental agreement on a dirt cheap
    apartment in a small city in a South American, African or Asian
    country and put a few bills in your name it would only cost you a few
    hundred US$ a year, which is worth doing if you were hiding millions.

    Nobody from the bank is going a come around to check up that you
    really are sleeping in the place you tell them you live at.


    >>>>>>This has nothing to do with numbered accounts.
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>Nobody from the bank is going to come around to actually check that
    >>>>>>>>you live where you say you do.
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>But they will want to verify your residence status to comply with the
    >>>>>>>EU Savings Directive.
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>>Right, but for those with enough money to hide it's easy enough to
    >>>>>>come up with suitable evidence to show residency almost anywhere you
    >>>>>>want.
    >>>>>
    >>>>>Perhaps, pre-2005. There is much more due diligence these days.
    >>>>
    >>>>Such as? All they ask for is something like an electricity or
    >>>>telephone bill. Either of those can be fairly easily arranged with a
    >>>>little bit of effort.
    >>>
    >>>A utility bill doesn't usually cut it. I've been through this myself.

    >>
    >>Then I suggest you take a look at the list of requirements here from
    >>HSBC's offshore banking unit.
    >>
    >>http://www.offshore.hsbc.com/1/2/popups/online-app-help
    >>
    >>Either an electricity or telephone bill are perfectly acceptable as
    >>proof of address. Either of those can be set up with little difficulty
    >>by anyone who is sufficiently interested in doing so.

    >
    >I thought we were talking about Swiss banks as opposed to some Isle of
    >Man bucket shop that apparently doesn't even require documentation for
    >a change of address!


    No, we were talking about HSBC. Read the subject line again.
     
    Chris Blunt, Sep 16, 2011
    #9
  10. sufaud

    Chris Blunt Guest

    On Fri, 16 Sep 2011 08:20:35 -0400, The Revd <>
    wrote:

    >On Fri, 16 Sep 2011 12:43:42 +0800, Chris Blunt <>
    >wrote:
    >
    >>On Thu, 15 Sep 2011 14:02:43 -0400, The Revd <>
    >>wrote:
    >>
    >>>On Sat, 10 Sep 2011 14:10:37 +0800, Chris Blunt <>
    >>>wrote:
    >>>
    >>>>On Fri, 09 Sep 2011 10:38:23 -0400, The Revd <>
    >>>>wrote:
    >>>>
    >>>>>On Fri, 09 Sep 2011 20:47:16 +0800, Chris Blunt <>
    >>>>>wrote:
    >>>>>
    >>>>>>On Fri, 09 Sep 2011 08:13:54 -0400, The Revd <>
    >>>>>>wrote:
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>>>On Fri, 09 Sep 2011 19:59:58 +0800, Chris Blunt <>
    >>>>>>>wrote:
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>On Thu, 08 Sep 2011 07:55:58 -0400, The Revd <>
    >>>>>>>>wrote:
    >>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>>>>Switzerland signed up for the European Savings Directive, 2005. UK
    >>>>>>>>>>>residents' accounts became subject to withholding tax on savings
    >>>>>>>>>>>income. The smart money left.
    >>>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>>>I would have thought that anyone with any significant amount of money
    >>>>>>>>>>could fairly easily set themselves up with a mailing address outside
    >>>>>>>>>>of Europe and use that as a contact address for the Swiss bank to use.
    >>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>>A mailing address is no longer sufficient. The days of the numbered
    >>>>>>>>>Swiss account are over.
    >>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>Of course they will want identity as well, but that is not relevant as
    >>>>>>>>far as liability to tax is concerned. They use the address they have
    >>>>>>>>on record for you to decide whether you are a UK (or EU) resident, so
    >>>>>>>>that decides whether they will deduct withholding tax or not.
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>The mailing address on record is no indication of residence status.
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>>If they don't use the address you have shown them you live at, then
    >>>>>>what do you believe they use to determine residence?
    >>>>>
    >>>>>The primary identification (passport) is typically used for
    >>>>>establishing residence. The country of citizenship is usually assumed
    >>>>>to be the country of residence in the absence of evidence to the
    >>>>>contrary (resident visa in the country of claimed residence or other
    >>>>>resident documentation).
    >>>>
    >>>>Nonsense. I have a UK passport but I've lived overseas for many years
    >>>>now.
    >>>
    >>>Same here.
    >>>
    >>>> I've held accounts with several offshore banks during that time,
    >>>>and none of them have assumed I'm a UK resident as a result of holding
    >>>>a UK passport. In every case they have based it on my claimed country
    >>>>of residence, and I've never needed to produce anything more than a
    >>>>couple of utility bills for them to verify that.
    >>>
    >>>All the banks I've dealt with have required proof of residence: real
    >>>proof, not just some trivial utility bill.

    >>
    >>What constitutes "real proof"?
    >>
    >>Whatever is required is not difficult to produce for someone who has
    >>enough money to hide to make it worthwhile doing. I live in the
    >>Philippines and you can get a permanent residence visa here simply by
    >>putting US$10,000 in a deposit account in a local bank.

    >
    >It's even easier elsewhere. A permanent residence visa works just
    >fine.


    In fact holding a residence visa for a country doesn't prove you
    actually live there, it just proves you have the right to live there.
    I have a document which shows I have the right to permanent residence
    in Hong Kong, but I haven't lived there for 15 years now.

    Despite your claims to the contrary, I've yet to find any bank that
    doesn't accept utility bills in your name as sufficient evidence.

    >>Even if you had to take out a rental agreement on a dirt cheap
    >>apartment in a small city in a South American, African or Asian
    >>country and put a few bills in your name it would only cost you a few
    >>hundred US$ a year, which is worth doing if you were hiding millions.

    >
    >I suppose it depends on the quality of bank you deal with. Some are
    >apparently more conscientious than others.
    >
    >>Nobody from the bank is going a come around to check up that you
    >>really are sleeping in the place you tell them you live at.

    >
    >Nor will they necessarily accept your 'proof of residence'.
    >
    >>>>>>>>This has nothing to do with numbered accounts.
    >>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>>>Nobody from the bank is going to come around to actually check that
    >>>>>>>>>>you live where you say you do.
    >>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>>But they will want to verify your residence status to comply with the
    >>>>>>>>>EU Savings Directive.
    >>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>Right, but for those with enough money to hide it's easy enough to
    >>>>>>>>come up with suitable evidence to show residency almost anywhere you
    >>>>>>>>want.
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>Perhaps, pre-2005. There is much more due diligence these days.
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>>Such as? All they ask for is something like an electricity or
    >>>>>>telephone bill. Either of those can be fairly easily arranged with a
    >>>>>>little bit of effort.
    >>>>>
    >>>>>A utility bill doesn't usually cut it. I've been through this myself.
    >>>>
    >>>>Then I suggest you take a look at the list of requirements here from
    >>>>HSBC's offshore banking unit.
    >>>>
    >>>>http://www.offshore.hsbc.com/1/2/popups/online-app-help
    >>>>
    >>>>Either an electricity or telephone bill are perfectly acceptable as
    >>>>proof of address. Either of those can be set up with little difficulty
    >>>>by anyone who is sufficiently interested in doing so.
    >>>
    >>>I thought we were talking about Swiss banks as opposed to some Isle of
    >>>Man bucket shop that apparently doesn't even require documentation for
    >>>a change of address!

    >>
    >>No, we were talking about HSBC. Read the subject line again.

    >
    >Not a HSBC Isle of Man bucket shop subsidiary, in other words.


    In other words what? HSBC on the Isle of Man has the same relationship
    to the HSBC Group as their branches in Switzerland do. They're both
    ultimately 100% owned subsidiaries of HSBC Holdings plc.

    So are you going to come up with some documented examples of banks
    that will not accept utility bills as proof of address like I did with
    HSBC? I could produce numerous other examples of banks that are
    satisfied by that requirement.
     
    Chris Blunt, Sep 17, 2011
    #10
  11. sufaud

    Chris Blunt Guest

    On Sat, 17 Sep 2011 07:30:24 -0400, The Revd <>
    wrote:

    >>>>>>>>>>>>Switzerland signed up for the European Savings Directive, 2005. UK
    >>>>>>>>>>>>>residents' accounts became subject to withholding tax on savings
    >>>>>>>>>>>>>income. The smart money left.
    >>>>>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>>>>>I would have thought that anyone with any significant amount of money
    >>>>>>>>>>>>could fairly easily set themselves up with a mailing address outside
    >>>>>>>>>>>>of Europe and use that as a contact address for the Swiss bank to use.
    >>>>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>>>>A mailing address is no longer sufficient. The days of the numbered
    >>>>>>>>>>>Swiss account are over.
    >>>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>>>Of course they will want identity as well, but that is not relevant as
    >>>>>>>>>>far as liability to tax is concerned. They use the address they have
    >>>>>>>>>>on record for you to decide whether you are a UK (or EU) resident, so
    >>>>>>>>>>that decides whether they will deduct withholding tax or not.
    >>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>>The mailing address on record is no indication of residence status.
    >>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>If they don't use the address you have shown them you live at, then
    >>>>>>>>what do you believe they use to determine residence?
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>The primary identification (passport) is typically used for
    >>>>>>>establishing residence. The country of citizenship is usually assumed
    >>>>>>>to be the country of residence in the absence of evidence to the
    >>>>>>>contrary (resident visa in the country of claimed residence or other
    >>>>>>>resident documentation).
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>>Nonsense. I have a UK passport but I've lived overseas for many years
    >>>>>>now.
    >>>>>
    >>>>>Same here.
    >>>>>
    >>>>>> I've held accounts with several offshore banks during that time,
    >>>>>>and none of them have assumed I'm a UK resident as a result of holding
    >>>>>>a UK passport. In every case they have based it on my claimed country
    >>>>>>of residence, and I've never needed to produce anything more than a
    >>>>>>couple of utility bills for them to verify that.
    >>>>>
    >>>>>All the banks I've dealt with have required proof of residence: real
    >>>>>proof, not just some trivial utility bill.
    >>>>
    >>>>What constitutes "real proof"?
    >>>>
    >>>>Whatever is required is not difficult to produce for someone who has
    >>>>enough money to hide to make it worthwhile doing. I live in the
    >>>>Philippines and you can get a permanent residence visa here simply by
    >>>>putting US$10,000 in a deposit account in a local bank.
    >>>
    >>>It's even easier elsewhere. A permanent residence visa works just
    >>>fine.

    >>
    >>In fact holding a residence visa for a country doesn't prove you
    >>actually live there, it just proves you have the right to live there.
    >>I have a document which shows I have the right to permanent residence
    >>in Hong Kong, but I haven't lived there for 15 years now.

    >
    >There is very little that can prove conclusively that you actually
    >live in the country you claim to live in. At least a permanent
    >resident visa demonstrates that you are legally entitled to live
    >there, which a utility bill doesn't.


    I agree it is difficult to prove, which is exactly why I said it's so
    easy to produce evidence to satisfy the requirements. Entitlement to
    live in a place is quite different from actually living there, which
    is why few banks accept visas as proof of residence.

    >>Despite your claims to the contrary, I've yet to find any bank that
    >>doesn't accept utility bills in your name as sufficient evidence.

    >
    >Depite your claims, I've yet to find a Swiss bank that does.


    There are the requirements for Credit Suisse, which clearly states
    that either an electricity bill or telephone bill is acceptable as
    proof of address.

    https://www.credit-suisse.com/in/investment_banking/doc/important_info/aml_kyc_guidelines.pdf


    >>>>Even if you had to take out a rental agreement on a dirt cheap
    >>>>apartment in a small city in a South American, African or Asian
    >>>>country and put a few bills in your name it would only cost you a few
    >>>>hundred US$ a year, which is worth doing if you were hiding millions.
    >>>
    >>>I suppose it depends on the quality of bank you deal with. Some are
    >>>apparently more conscientious than others.
    >>>
    >>>>Nobody from the bank is going a come around to check up that you
    >>>>really are sleeping in the place you tell them you live at.
    >>>
    >>>Nor will they necessarily accept your 'proof of residence'.
    >>>
    >>>>>>>>>>This has nothing to do with numbered accounts.
    >>>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>>>>>Nobody from the bank is going to come around to actually check that
    >>>>>>>>>>>>you live where you say you do.
    >>>>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>>>>But they will want to verify your residence status to comply with the
    >>>>>>>>>>>EU Savings Directive.
    >>>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>>>Right, but for those with enough money to hide it's easy enough to
    >>>>>>>>>>come up with suitable evidence to show residency almost anywhere you
    >>>>>>>>>>want.
    >>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>>Perhaps, pre-2005. There is much more due diligence these days.
    >>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>Such as? All they ask for is something like an electricity or
    >>>>>>>>telephone bill. Either of those can be fairly easily arranged with a
    >>>>>>>>little bit of effort.
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>A utility bill doesn't usually cut it. I've been through this myself.
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>>Then I suggest you take a look at the list of requirements here from
    >>>>>>HSBC's offshore banking unit.
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>>http://www.offshore.hsbc.com/1/2/popups/online-app-help
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>>Either an electricity or telephone bill are perfectly acceptable as
    >>>>>>proof of address. Either of those can be set up with little difficulty
    >>>>>>by anyone who is sufficiently interested in doing so.
    >>>>>
    >>>>>I thought we were talking about Swiss banks as opposed to some Isle of
    >>>>>Man bucket shop that apparently doesn't even require documentation for
    >>>>>a change of address!
    >>>>
    >>>>No, we were talking about HSBC. Read the subject line again.
    >>>
    >>>Not a HSBC Isle of Man bucket shop subsidiary, in other words.

    >>
    >>In other words what? HSBC on the Isle of Man has the same relationship
    >>to the HSBC Group as their branches in Switzerland do. They're both
    >>ultimately 100% owned subsidiaries of HSBC Holdings plc.

    >
    >But they are subject to different laws and codes of practice.
    >
    >>So are you going to come up with some documented examples of banks
    >>that will not accept utility bills as proof of address like I did with
    >>HSBC? I could produce numerous other examples of banks that are
    >>satisfied by that requirement.

    >
    >Where's the documented example of a *Swiss* bank that is satisfied
    >with that requirement?


    As above.
     
    Chris Blunt, Sep 18, 2011
    #11
  12. sufaud

    Chris Blunt Guest

    On Sun, 18 Sep 2011 10:17:26 -0400, The Revd <>
    wrote:

    >On Sun, 18 Sep 2011 12:08:40 +0800, Chris Blunt <>
    >wrote:
    >
    >>On Sat, 17 Sep 2011 07:30:24 -0400, The Revd <>
    >>wrote:
    >>
    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>Switzerland signed up for the European Savings Directive, 2005. UK
    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>residents' accounts became subject to withholding tax on savings
    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>income. The smart money left.
    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>I would have thought that anyone with any significant amount of money
    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>could fairly easily set themselves up with a mailing address outside
    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>of Europe and use that as a contact address for the Swiss bank to use.
    >>>>>>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>>>>>>A mailing address is no longer sufficient. The days of the numbered
    >>>>>>>>>>>>>Swiss account are over.
    >>>>>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>>>>>Of course they will want identity as well, but that is not relevant as
    >>>>>>>>>>>>far as liability to tax is concerned. They use the address they have
    >>>>>>>>>>>>on record for you to decide whether you are a UK (or EU) resident, so
    >>>>>>>>>>>>that decides whether they will deduct withholding tax or not.
    >>>>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>>>>The mailing address on record is no indication of residence status.
    >>>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>>>If they don't use the address you have shown them you live at, then
    >>>>>>>>>>what do you believe they use to determine residence?
    >>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>>The primary identification (passport) is typically used for
    >>>>>>>>>establishing residence. The country of citizenship is usually assumed
    >>>>>>>>>to be the country of residence in the absence of evidence to the
    >>>>>>>>>contrary (resident visa in the country of claimed residence or other
    >>>>>>>>>resident documentation).
    >>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>Nonsense. I have a UK passport but I've lived overseas for many years
    >>>>>>>>now.
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>Same here.
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>> I've held accounts with several offshore banks during that time,
    >>>>>>>>and none of them have assumed I'm a UK resident as a result of holding
    >>>>>>>>a UK passport. In every case they have based it on my claimed country
    >>>>>>>>of residence, and I've never needed to produce anything more than a
    >>>>>>>>couple of utility bills for them to verify that.
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>All the banks I've dealt with have required proof of residence: real
    >>>>>>>proof, not just some trivial utility bill.
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>>What constitutes "real proof"?
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>>Whatever is required is not difficult to produce for someone who has
    >>>>>>enough money to hide to make it worthwhile doing. I live in the
    >>>>>>Philippines and you can get a permanent residence visa here simply by
    >>>>>>putting US$10,000 in a deposit account in a local bank.
    >>>>>
    >>>>>It's even easier elsewhere. A permanent residence visa works just
    >>>>>fine.
    >>>>
    >>>>In fact holding a residence visa for a country doesn't prove you
    >>>>actually live there, it just proves you have the right to live there.
    >>>>I have a document which shows I have the right to permanent residence
    >>>>in Hong Kong, but I haven't lived there for 15 years now.
    >>>
    >>>There is very little that can prove conclusively that you actually
    >>>live in the country you claim to live in. At least a permanent
    >>>resident visa demonstrates that you are legally entitled to live
    >>>there, which a utility bill doesn't.

    >>
    >>I agree it is difficult to prove, which is exactly why I said it's so
    >>easy to produce evidence to satisfy the requirements. Entitlement to
    >>live in a place is quite different from actually living there, which
    >>is why few banks accept visas as proof of residence.

    >
    >On the other hand, a utility bill from a country in which you have no
    >right to reside is clearly bogus.


    It might be bogus, but not necessarily so. In fact that was exactly my
    point in the first place. I said it was easy to come up with evidence
    acceptable to the banks which shows that you live in a country when
    you don't actually live there at all.

    Despite that, you cannot claim that such bills are bogus simply
    because the person doesn't hold a residence visa. Some countries don't
    even issue such things as residence visas. Many people have their
    homes in and live for long periods of time in countries while they are
    technically classed as visitors. If someone lives in a country for
    eleven months out of the year it would be misleading of them to claim
    to live anywhere other than the place where they spend the vast
    majority of their time. In these cases phone and electricity bills
    show the banks exactly what they want to see.

    >>>>Despite your claims to the contrary, I've yet to find any bank that
    >>>>doesn't accept utility bills in your name as sufficient evidence.
    >>>
    >>>Depite your claims, I've yet to find a Swiss bank that does.

    >>
    >>There are the requirements for Credit Suisse, which clearly states
    >>that either an electricity bill or telephone bill is acceptable as
    >>proof of address.
    >>
    >>https://www.credit-suisse.com/in/investment_banking/doc/important_info/aml_kyc_guidelines.pdf

    >
    >Subsidiary bank in India.


    Give it up man. You're constantly moving the goalposts. The thread
    started off talking about HSBC and I provided documentary evidence
    which showed that HSBC accept utility bills. Then you decided you
    wanted to narrow it down to "a Swiss bank" so I gave you evidence of
    what Credit Suisse require. Now you apparently want to narrow it down
    to something else. You have failed to come up with a single shred of
    evidence to prove your claim that utility bills are unacceptable to
    any bank.

    The fact is that documents such as electricity and telephone bills are
    the "industry standard" as far as evidence of a customer's address is
    concerned. I could come up with numerous other example of where this
    is the situation with banks all over the world. Your claims to the
    contrary are nothing but hot air.
     
    Chris Blunt, Sep 19, 2011
    #12
  13. sufaud

    Chris Blunt Guest

    On Mon, 19 Sep 2011 15:01:08 -0400, The Revd <>
    wrote:

    >On Mon, 19 Sep 2011 12:56:07 +0800, Chris Blunt <>
    >wrote:
    >
    >>On Sun, 18 Sep 2011 10:17:26 -0400, The Revd <>
    >>wrote:
    >>
    >>>On Sun, 18 Sep 2011 12:08:40 +0800, Chris Blunt <>
    >>>wrote:
    >>>
    >>>>On Sat, 17 Sep 2011 07:30:24 -0400, The Revd <>
    >>>>wrote:
    >>>>
    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Switzerland signed up for the European Savings Directive, 2005. UK
    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>residents' accounts became subject to withholding tax on savings
    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>income. The smart money left.
    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>I would have thought that anyone with any significant amount of money
    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>could fairly easily set themselves up with a mailing address outside
    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>of Europe and use that as a contact address for the Swiss bank to use.
    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>A mailing address is no longer sufficient. The days of the numbered
    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Swiss account are over.
    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>Of course they will want identity as well, but that is not relevant as
    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>far as liability to tax is concerned. They use the address they have
    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>on record for you to decide whether you are a UK (or EU) resident, so
    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>that decides whether they will deduct withholding tax or not.
    >>>>>>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>>>>>>The mailing address on record is no indication of residence status.
    >>>>>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>>>>>If they don't use the address you have shown them you live at, then
    >>>>>>>>>>>>what do you believe they use to determine residence?
    >>>>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>>>>The primary identification (passport) is typically used for
    >>>>>>>>>>>establishing residence. The country of citizenship is usually assumed
    >>>>>>>>>>>to be the country of residence in the absence of evidence to the
    >>>>>>>>>>>contrary (resident visa in the country of claimed residence or other
    >>>>>>>>>>>resident documentation).
    >>>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>>>Nonsense. I have a UK passport but I've lived overseas for many years
    >>>>>>>>>>now.
    >>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>>Same here.
    >>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>>> I've held accounts with several offshore banks during that time,
    >>>>>>>>>>and none of them have assumed I'm a UK resident as a result of holding
    >>>>>>>>>>a UK passport. In every case they have based it on my claimed country
    >>>>>>>>>>of residence, and I've never needed to produce anything more than a
    >>>>>>>>>>couple of utility bills for them to verify that.
    >>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>>All the banks I've dealt with have required proof of residence: real
    >>>>>>>>>proof, not just some trivial utility bill.
    >>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>What constitutes "real proof"?
    >>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>Whatever is required is not difficult to produce for someone who has
    >>>>>>>>enough money to hide to make it worthwhile doing. I live in the
    >>>>>>>>Philippines and you can get a permanent residence visa here simply by
    >>>>>>>>putting US$10,000 in a deposit account in a local bank.
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>It's even easier elsewhere. A permanent residence visa works just
    >>>>>>>fine.
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>>In fact holding a residence visa for a country doesn't prove you
    >>>>>>actually live there, it just proves you have the right to live there.
    >>>>>>I have a document which shows I have the right to permanent residence
    >>>>>>in Hong Kong, but I haven't lived there for 15 years now.
    >>>>>
    >>>>>There is very little that can prove conclusively that you actually
    >>>>>live in the country you claim to live in. At least a permanent
    >>>>>resident visa demonstrates that you are legally entitled to live
    >>>>>there, which a utility bill doesn't.
    >>>>
    >>>>I agree it is difficult to prove, which is exactly why I said it's so
    >>>>easy to produce evidence to satisfy the requirements. Entitlement to
    >>>>live in a place is quite different from actually living there, which
    >>>>is why few banks accept visas as proof of residence.
    >>>
    >>>On the other hand, a utility bill from a country in which you have no
    >>>right to reside is clearly bogus.

    >>
    >>It might be bogus, but not necessarily so. In fact that was exactly my
    >>point in the first place. I said it was easy to come up with evidence
    >>acceptable to the banks which shows that you live in a country when
    >>you don't actually live there at all.

    >
    >You've yet to show that it's acceptable to a bank in Switzerland.
    >
    >>Despite that, you cannot claim that such bills are bogus simply
    >>because the person doesn't hold a residence visa. Some countries don't
    >>even issue such things as residence visas.

    >
    >Such as?
    >
    >>Many people have their
    >>homes in and live for long periods of time in countries while they are
    >>technically classed as visitors.

    >
    >Technically, visitor status has a time limit.
    >
    >>If someone lives in a country for
    >>eleven months out of the year it would be misleading of them to claim
    >>to live anywhere other than the place where they spend the vast
    >>majority of their time. In these cases phone and electricity bills
    >>show the banks exactly what they want to see.

    >
    >Except that you haven't shown this to be the case in *Switzerland*.
    >
    >>>>>>Despite your claims to the contrary, I've yet to find any bank that
    >>>>>>doesn't accept utility bills in your name as sufficient evidence.
    >>>>>
    >>>>>Depite your claims, I've yet to find a Swiss bank that does.
    >>>>
    >>>>There are the requirements for Credit Suisse, which clearly states
    >>>>that either an electricity bill or telephone bill is acceptable as
    >>>>proof of address.
    >>>>
    >>>>https://www.credit-suisse.com/in/investment_banking/doc/important_info/aml_kyc_guidelines.pdf
    >>>
    >>>Subsidiary bank in India.

    >>
    >>Give it up man. You're constantly moving the goalposts. The thread
    >>started off talking about HSBC

    >
    >HSBC in Switzerland, where the disclosure of customer data occurred.
    >
    >>and I provided documentary evidence
    >>which showed that HSBC accept utility bills.

    >
    >Not in Switzerland.
    >
    >>Then you decided you
    >>wanted to narrow it down to "a Swiss bank"

    >
    >Call it a bank operating in Switzerland if you prefer.
    >
    >>so I gave you evidence of
    >>what Credit Suisse require.

    >
    >In India, of all places.
    >
    >>Now you apparently want to narrow it down
    >>to something else. You have failed to come up with a single shred of
    >>evidence to prove your claim that utility bills are unacceptable to
    >>any bank.

    >
    >You, on the other hand, have failed to come up with a single shred of
    >evidence that a bank in Switzerland, operating under Swiss law,
    >whether it be HSBC or any other, will accept utility bills as proof of
    >evidence.
    >
    >All you have managed to come up with is irrelevant examples from the
    >Isle of Man and India. Neither of those are relevant to the Swiss
    >banking system.
    >
    >>The fact is that documents such as electricity and telephone bills are
    >>the "industry standard" as far as evidence of a customer's address is
    >>concerned. I could come up with numerous other example of where this
    >>is the situation with banks all over the world. Your claims to the
    >>contrary are nothing but hot air.

    >
    >Perhaps you could come up with numerous examples of how this applies
    >in *Switzerland*. Or are you a troll?


    The client is trying to show that he lives *outside* Switzerland, so
    he would come under the rules that Swiss banks apply to their
    customers who live outside the area covered by the European Union
    Savings Directive.

    The particular example I gave was the rules that Credit Suisse AG use
    for their customers who claim to be resident in India. Credit Suisse
    AG is a bank "in Switzerland". The rules were decided on by their
    management headquarters in Switzerland for clients living in India and
    wanting to open accounts at their Mumbai branch. If they apply a
    different set of rules for clients claiming to actually live in
    Switzerland itself that is irrelevant as far as this discussion is
    concerned.
     
    Chris Blunt, Sep 20, 2011
    #13
  14. sufaud

    Chris Blunt Guest

    On Wed, 21 Sep 2011 07:02:50 -0400, The Revd <>
    wrote:

    >On Tue, 20 Sep 2011 10:17:41 +0800, Chris Blunt <>
    >wrote:
    >
    >>On Mon, 19 Sep 2011 15:01:08 -0400, The Revd <>
    >>wrote:
    >>
    >>>On Mon, 19 Sep 2011 12:56:07 +0800, Chris Blunt <>
    >>>wrote:
    >>>
    >>>>On Sun, 18 Sep 2011 10:17:26 -0400, The Revd <>
    >>>>wrote:
    >>>>
    >>>>>On Sun, 18 Sep 2011 12:08:40 +0800, Chris Blunt <>
    >>>>>wrote:
    >>>>>
    >>>>>>On Sat, 17 Sep 2011 07:30:24 -0400, The Revd <>
    >>>>>>wrote:
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Switzerland signed up for the European Savings Directive, 2005. UK
    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>residents' accounts became subject to withholding tax on savings
    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>income. The smart money left.
    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>I would have thought that anyone with any significant amount of money
    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>could fairly easily set themselves up with a mailing address outside
    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>of Europe and use that as a contact address for the Swiss bank to use.
    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>A mailing address is no longer sufficient. The days of the numbered
    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Swiss account are over.
    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Of course they will want identity as well, but that is not relevant as
    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>far as liability to tax is concerned. They use the address they have
    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>on record for you to decide whether you are a UK (or EU) resident, so
    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>that decides whether they will deduct withholding tax or not.
    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>The mailing address on record is no indication of residence status.
    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>If they don't use the address you have shown them you live at, then
    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>what do you believe they use to determine residence?
    >>>>>>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>>>>>>The primary identification (passport) is typically used for
    >>>>>>>>>>>>>establishing residence. The country of citizenship is usually assumed
    >>>>>>>>>>>>>to be the country of residence in the absence of evidence to the
    >>>>>>>>>>>>>contrary (resident visa in the country of claimed residence or other
    >>>>>>>>>>>>>resident documentation).
    >>>>>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>>>>>Nonsense. I have a UK passport but I've lived overseas for many years
    >>>>>>>>>>>>now.
    >>>>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>>>>Same here.
    >>>>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>>>>> I've held accounts with several offshore banks during that time,
    >>>>>>>>>>>>and none of them have assumed I'm a UK resident as a result of holding
    >>>>>>>>>>>>a UK passport. In every case they have based it on my claimed country
    >>>>>>>>>>>>of residence, and I've never needed to produce anything more than a
    >>>>>>>>>>>>couple of utility bills for them to verify that.
    >>>>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>>>>All the banks I've dealt with have required proof of residence: real
    >>>>>>>>>>>proof, not just some trivial utility bill.
    >>>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>>>What constitutes "real proof"?
    >>>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>>>Whatever is required is not difficult to produce for someone who has
    >>>>>>>>>>enough money to hide to make it worthwhile doing. I live in the
    >>>>>>>>>>Philippines and you can get a permanent residence visa here simply by
    >>>>>>>>>>putting US$10,000 in a deposit account in a local bank.
    >>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>>It's even easier elsewhere. A permanent residence visa works just
    >>>>>>>>>fine.
    >>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>In fact holding a residence visa for a country doesn't prove you
    >>>>>>>>actually live there, it just proves you have the right to live there.
    >>>>>>>>I have a document which shows I have the right to permanent residence
    >>>>>>>>in Hong Kong, but I haven't lived there for 15 years now.
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>There is very little that can prove conclusively that you actually
    >>>>>>>live in the country you claim to live in. At least a permanent
    >>>>>>>resident visa demonstrates that you are legally entitled to live
    >>>>>>>there, which a utility bill doesn't.
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>>I agree it is difficult to prove, which is exactly why I said it's so
    >>>>>>easy to produce evidence to satisfy the requirements. Entitlement to
    >>>>>>live in a place is quite different from actually living there, which
    >>>>>>is why few banks accept visas as proof of residence.
    >>>>>
    >>>>>On the other hand, a utility bill from a country in which you have no
    >>>>>right to reside is clearly bogus.
    >>>>
    >>>>It might be bogus, but not necessarily so. In fact that was exactly my
    >>>>point in the first place. I said it was easy to come up with evidence
    >>>>acceptable to the banks which shows that you live in a country when
    >>>>you don't actually live there at all.
    >>>
    >>>You've yet to show that it's acceptable to a bank in Switzerland.
    >>>
    >>>>Despite that, you cannot claim that such bills are bogus simply
    >>>>because the person doesn't hold a residence visa. Some countries don't
    >>>>even issue such things as residence visas.
    >>>
    >>>Such as?
    >>>
    >>>>Many people have their
    >>>>homes in and live for long periods of time in countries while they are
    >>>>technically classed as visitors.
    >>>
    >>>Technically, visitor status has a time limit.
    >>>
    >>>>If someone lives in a country for
    >>>>eleven months out of the year it would be misleading of them to claim
    >>>>to live anywhere other than the place where they spend the vast
    >>>>majority of their time. In these cases phone and electricity bills
    >>>>show the banks exactly what they want to see.
    >>>
    >>>Except that you haven't shown this to be the case in *Switzerland*.
    >>>
    >>>>>>>>Despite your claims to the contrary, I've yet to find any bank that
    >>>>>>>>doesn't accept utility bills in your name as sufficient evidence.
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>Depite your claims, I've yet to find a Swiss bank that does.
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>>There are the requirements for Credit Suisse, which clearly states
    >>>>>>that either an electricity bill or telephone bill is acceptable as
    >>>>>>proof of address.
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>>https://www.credit-suisse.com/in/investment_banking/doc/important_info/aml_kyc_guidelines.pdf
    >>>>>
    >>>>>Subsidiary bank in India.
    >>>>
    >>>>Give it up man. You're constantly moving the goalposts. The thread
    >>>>started off talking about HSBC
    >>>
    >>>HSBC in Switzerland, where the disclosure of customer data occurred.
    >>>
    >>>>and I provided documentary evidence
    >>>>which showed that HSBC accept utility bills.
    >>>
    >>>Not in Switzerland.
    >>>
    >>>>Then you decided you
    >>>>wanted to narrow it down to "a Swiss bank"
    >>>
    >>>Call it a bank operating in Switzerland if you prefer.
    >>>
    >>>>so I gave you evidence of
    >>>>what Credit Suisse require.
    >>>
    >>>In India, of all places.
    >>>
    >>>>Now you apparently want to narrow it down
    >>>>to something else. You have failed to come up with a single shred of
    >>>>evidence to prove your claim that utility bills are unacceptable to
    >>>>any bank.
    >>>
    >>>You, on the other hand, have failed to come up with a single shred of
    >>>evidence that a bank in Switzerland, operating under Swiss law,
    >>>whether it be HSBC or any other, will accept utility bills as proof of
    >>>evidence.
    >>>
    >>>All you have managed to come up with is irrelevant examples from the
    >>>Isle of Man and India. Neither of those are relevant to the Swiss
    >>>banking system.
    >>>
    >>>>The fact is that documents such as electricity and telephone bills are
    >>>>the "industry standard" as far as evidence of a customer's address is
    >>>>concerned. I could come up with numerous other example of where this
    >>>>is the situation with banks all over the world. Your claims to the
    >>>>contrary are nothing but hot air.
    >>>
    >>>Perhaps you could come up with numerous examples of how this applies
    >>>in *Switzerland*. Or are you a troll?

    >>
    >>The client is trying to show that he lives *outside* Switzerland, so
    >>he would come under the rules that Swiss banks apply to their
    >>customers who live outside the area covered by the European Union
    >>Savings Directive.
    >>
    >>The particular example I gave was the rules that Credit Suisse AG use
    >>for their customers who claim to be resident in India. Credit Suisse
    >>AG is a bank "in Switzerland". The rules were decided on by their
    >>management headquarters in Switzerland for clients living in India and
    >>wanting to open accounts at their Mumbai branch. If they apply a
    >>different set of rules for clients claiming to actually live in
    >>Switzerland itself that is irrelevant as far as this discussion is
    >>concerned.

    >
    >That's not the way I see it. The rules appear to be specifiic to the
    >Credit Suisse branch in Mumbai. There may be advantages to NOT being
    >resident in India when opening an account there. There is no evidence
    >to show that they apply to Credit Suisse worldwide.


    Well you're the one who claims to have had personal experience of
    opening accounts with Swiss banks so I would have thought you should
    be in a position to know. I did invite you to produce some evidence to
    substantiate your claims, but you haven't been able to come up with
    anything yet.

    I bank mainly with HSBC, although I've held various accounts with
    several other banks as well. I know what I've been asked for to prove
    my address and I was able to show what their requirements are.

    >Anecdote regarding HSBC: I once walked into their Luxembourg office
    >with the intention of opening an account. They thought I was somebody
    >else and handed me the statements of a complete stranger. I went
    >elsewhere.


    Definitely not good. I've been affected by the most appalling breaches
    of security by banks in the past. They like to be judgemental of
    others but are often not so good at putting their own house in order.
     
    Chris Blunt, Sep 22, 2011
    #14
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