Accounting should let me delete any checking account deposit!


E

Ed

In the account register I sould be able to delete anything because some
entered things are accidential, such as a journal entry and other voided
deposits.

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http://www.microsoft.com/office/community/en-us/default.mspx?mid=8a022583-f365-49fe-9a00-c0b7036a99e8&dg=microsoft.public.sba.general
 
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C

Chris Schatte

Hi Ed,
There is a reason for this, should you ever get audited by the IRS its good
that you have a trail you can provide. Also if you have an accountant he/she
would/should require the same.
 
A

Allan Martin

Chris Schatte said:
Hi Ed,
There is a reason for this, should you ever get audited by the IRS its
good
that you have a trail you can provide. Also if you have an accountant
he/she
would/should require the same.
That is absolutely incorrect. The IRS couldn't care less. The inability to
completely remove transactions is good for internal control.

Naturally in environments were the owner of the business also maintains the
books not being able to remove transactions serves little purpose.
 
R

Rick

I agree with Allan that the IRS couldn't care less.

But I disagree that this feature is good (and yes, I'm a CPA.)

A SOX-compliant industrial-strenghth audit trail worthy of a Fortune 500
company is totally out of proportion to the target users of this accounting
system (not to mention the scope of its features). It's obvious that it was
a design requirement, but that's where I think a mistake was made. I think
it was a lack of understanding how small businesses use an accounting system
on the part of the architects.

Auditors (and the IRS) are going to audit balances. They're not going to
chase debits and credits through your books like a dog chasing a gopher from
hole to hole.

I hate that if I want to add a memo to an invoice or change the terms, it
TRIPLES the number of entries in each account it hits because it voids it
first then saves a new one. More crap to wade through for no good reason.

As a compromise, I _could_ see the ability to edit transactions as a task
that had to be granted to a role.

-Rick
 
A

Allan Martin

Rick said:
I agree with Allan that the IRS couldn't care less.

But I disagree that this feature is good (and yes, I'm a CPA.)

A SOX-compliant industrial-strenghth audit trail worthy of a Fortune 500
company is totally out of proportion to the target users of this
accounting
system (not to mention the scope of its features). It's obvious that it
was
a design requirement, but that's where I think a mistake was made. I
think
it was a lack of understanding how small businesses use an accounting
system
on the part of the architects.

Auditors (and the IRS) are going to audit balances. They're not going to
chase debits and credits through your books like a dog chasing a gopher
from
hole to hole.
Actually I have a cleint that just went through a TCMP corporate audit and
the IRS did chase debits and credits through their books like a dog chasing
a gopher from hole to hole.



I hate that if I want to add a memo to an invoice or change the terms, it
TRIPLES the number of entries in each account it hits because it voids it
first then saves a new one. More crap to wade through for no good reason.
It appears Microsoft wanted to distinguish themselves from Intuit and this
design is deliberate. That said, anyone following the industry can see that
Intuit plans on having QuickBooks become the defacto write-up package in the
public accounting sector. The ability to change any transaction or remove
same is required for such an environment. Once this happens (becoming the
standard) and that time is coming soon, it will be difficult imagining CPA's
recommending SBA. Most CPA's will be reluctant to learn another system when
they are in bed with one that does the job so well now.
 
R

Rick

Allan Martin said:
Actually I have a cleint that just went through a TCMP corporate audit and
the IRS did chase debits and credits through their books like a dog chasing
a gopher from hole to hole.
Well, if you give them no choice, then they have no choice.
 
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C

Chris Schatte

Then if there was nothing to hide or "disapear" the audit trail would be
available to whomever? Moles are much harder to kill than gophers.
 
A

Allan Martin

Chris Schatte said:
Then if there was nothing to hide or "disapear" the audit trail would be
available to whomever? Moles are much harder to kill than gophers.

Chris Schatte
Actually there was nothing to hide and the client walked away with no
changes. The software the client uses is a mid-range product and I can
assure you that once posted, information stays there unless reversed or
adjusted.
 
C

Chris Schatte

Egg freakin zactly. In SBA or OA there is always an audit trail for moles,
gophers or any critter that reviews all data entered...
 
R

Rick

You guys go ahead and pat yourselves on the back for agreeing on something,
and poke fun at my analogy. But you haven't convinced me that adding a memo
to a header record should necessarily void and re-insert an entire record
including for each line-item.

This is actually the same thing as changing the distribution on a line-item
on an invoice that has been paid and the cash account reconciled.
Unreconciling the account for this is overkill. Oh I forgot, in Allan's real
world, his clients don't actually reconcile their cash accounts, so I guess
that's not a problem for him.

There's no bigger proponent of a good audit trail than me. But I do
question the design that specifies this class of audit trail for an
accounting system that I am becoming more and more convinced is targeted at
the self-employed home gardener.

Have either of you guys ever been a controller or an auditor? I've been
both. And I've been through IRS audits and never lost a dime. As an
auditor, did you ever discover a defalcation? I did...the biggest one my big
6 (at the time) firm had ever seen in our city. Did I do it by chasing
debits and credits? No. The debits and credits that run through the books
are just another representation on the part of the client. You can have a
fraudelent entry as easily as a fraudulent change to an existing entry.

All I was saying is that the inability to change/edit entries with this
system is out of proportion with the target user of the system and the
capabilities of the system. For Pete's sake, you can't even do a reversing
journal entry in this system.

So you guys get off of your high horses. Fraud, or the lack of it is the
responsibility of the client. Or in my case, my responsibility. And unless
you're getting paid for an audit opionion, it isn't your concern.

I've wasted enough time with this.
 
A

Allan Martin

Rick said:
You guys go ahead and pat yourselves on the back for agreeing on
something,
and poke fun at my analogy. But you haven't convinced me that adding a
memo
to a header record should necessarily void and re-insert an entire record
including for each line-item.

This is actually the same thing as changing the distribution on a
line-item
on an invoice that has been paid and the cash account reconciled.
Unreconciling the account for this is overkill. Oh I forgot, in Allan's
real
world, his clients don't actually reconcile their cash accounts, so I
guess
that's not a problem for him.
I don't have any clients or know of any that use SBA 2006. So yes, no
problem.

There's no bigger proponent of a good audit trail than me. But I do
question the design that specifies this class of audit trail for an
accounting system that I am becoming more and more convinced is targeted
at
the self-employed home gardener.
What took you so long to realize this? The target user is one that does it
now by pencil.

Have either of you guys ever been a controller or an auditor?
Yes as a matter of fact.


I've been
both. And I've been through IRS audits and never lost a dime. As an
auditor, did you ever discover a defalcation? I did...the biggest one my
big
6 (at the time) firm had ever seen in our city. Did I do it by chasing
debits and credits? No. The debits and credits that run through the
books
are just another representation on the part of the client. You can have a
fraudelent entry as easily as a fraudulent change to an existing entry.

All I was saying is that the inability to change/edit entries with this
system is out of proportion with the target user of the system and the
capabilities of the system. For Pete's sake, you can't even do a
reversing
journal entry in this system.
Now your being silly. Of course you can make a reversing journal entry,
abeit manually but it certainly can be done.
 
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M

mikejrt

"True Accounting" does not mean "Can't make any changes later"
Quickbooks enables audit trails for all accounts, but does allow the
administrator or accountant to delete and revise transactions, especially if
they are in the current year.

At the very least we need an accountant or administrator or super user mode
to make change and real deletes, otherwise and changes or improvedments to
our customers categories, meathods, etc, results in all their reports being
populated with huge numbers of strange entries and counter entries. This is
a "small business" accounting package, and by removing the ability to delete
bad transactions you are causing a lot of pain for small business owners who
want simple reports, not pages of counterbalancing "corrections" for a simple
deletion of bad transactions.

The duplicate entries discourage users from making changes or improvements
to their categories, so they will leave incorrect entries as such instead of
making gradual improvements in the current year such as replacing straight
deposits (splits) with real sales orders to undeposited funds, then combined
deposits. I read it is impossible to change the date on a deposit without a
void. If this is the case and has still not been changed it needs to be fixed
right away as deposit date corrections happen very frequently, and voiding
deposit splits are quite ugly as they effect multiple accounts.
 
M

mikejrt

Also, if you DO get audited, a bunch of records of incorrect transactions are
just going to bring up many extra unnecissary time consuming questions.

This is a product designed for the END USER sole propriator to enter his/her
checking account transactions in categories, then give to an accountant to
compile real reports with depreciation/amort, etc. This is a "first line"
program, where removing the ability to make changes in the current quarter to
deposits or any other transaction is absolutly unexcusable. I could
understand the need to void transactions from years or quarters that are
closed out.

Why are we testing MSA? Honestly these are the only reasons:
In the past quickbooks has required administrator access so end user
security and administration is more difficult, and vista support was
initially lacking... Price? Well if the cost of Quickbooks Enterprise is
equal to the cost of two days consulting, then the cost of Quickbooks
Enterprise is really not a factor. Also, with some financial institutions
the reconcile process was not pleasant with quickbooks, as it required
spreadsheet manipulation and manual account creation.

With MSA if we can't make the process simple for our end customer, they are
not going to be happy, and requiring BCM for two way contact sync, and
removing the ability to delete mistakes are making the concept much more
complicated... Syncronizing and backup of contact data in BCM or SBA requires
SQL Server running on a full fledged version of Server2003, and a complicated
*unsupported* SQL mirror and trust between two expensive windows servers.
SBServer users need not apply. I am describing a disaster recovery strategy
where a new server could be brought online right away to replace one that has
failed, NOT restoring from a backup you made at the beginning of the day,
back oh 100 transactions or so, no biggie. :) There is currently no way to
have SBA working in a trust relationship with a server, but save a local copy
of the data in the event of server failure.

SBA is trying to be two products at once and failing at both. If you want
to appeal to the enterprise sector the backend data needs to be saved in a
way it can be mirrored easily in real time. If the product is for end users
it needs to sync contacts with Outlook in real time without using business
contact manager, which requires another database which must be backed up and
cared for, adds another level of unneeded complexity for most users.

If these problems are not addressed our company and our clients are sticking
with quickbooks and outlook 2003 running natively on a linux terminal server,
even if we do have free licences for 2007 PRO :)

MS, if you want to sell licences for Server 2008, SQL Server, and Office
2007, please take note, you are losing small business and enterprise
customers for the above reasons.

On the file deletion issue: The fix could be implemented as an optional
setting where some companies could make perminant changes but only from the
Admin/Accountant account, etc...

Small businesses must have the ability to delete transactions or game over:
They are going back to Openoffice / GNUCash / Quickbooks.

Regards,

Mike Thomas
Kore Innovation Technology Inc
 
A

AJ

This makes for an especially messy bookkeeping system, especially when trying
to learn all the quirks of this program. I am leaving Peachtree, but it
definately has some advantages, but then I am finding other things in
accounting professional that I wish Peachtree had, so everything is a trade
off.
 
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C

Confused

This is a product designed for the END USER sole propriator to enter
his/her
Speaking as a ' sole propriator' and accounting illiterate, i find it handy.
It lets me audit employee activity since i usually work at a different
location i can make sure they dont 'delete line' items, change amounts or put
notes on the invoices contrary to my business practice.
 

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