After hours of trying, no luck getting help from the IRS


J

Jonathan Kamens

I e-filed my Federal return around February 18.

A week later, I filed a 1040X because my company issued me a
W-2c, due to increased wages due to disqualifying disposition
in December that didn't get straightened out until February.
The 1040X said I owed $147 more, which TurboTax claimed would
be direct-debited from my bank account like my original
payment from my e-filing.

The original payment was direct-debited on April 18 as
expected. The additional $147 was not, and hasn't been since
then.

Last week, I got a notice "CP22A" from the IRS: "We made the
changes you requested to your 2010 Form 1040 to adjust your
Schedule H." I never requested any changes to my Schedule H.
The notice said $34.00 in additional taxes plus $0.17 in
interest are due by June 20.

I called the number on the notice today to try to straighten
out (a) what changes had been made to my Schedule H, since I
never in fact requested any, (b) why the payment for my 1040X
hadn't been direct-debited, and (c) whether what happened was,
as I suspected, that the changes I supposedly requested to my
Schedule H were in fact someone screwing up when processing my
1040X. Although why it would take them until May 30 to process
a 1040X mailed on February 25, I have no idea.

I spent an hour and twenty minutes on the phone with the IRS.
Got transferred four times. Nobody helped me. The final
transfer brought me to a recording telling me I had to call
the "business and specialty tax line" at a different number,
and then disconnected me.

I called the business and specialty tax line and spoke to an
operator who said she was transferring me to "accounts." When
I heard the recording informing me for the third time in two
hours that I would have to listen to that insanity-inducing
30-second-loop hold music for more than 15 minutes, I threw up
my hands in disgust and hung up.

Since I work in downtown Boston, I decided I would walk over
to the JFK Federal Building and try in person to get help from
the Taxpayer Advocate office there. When I got there, I found
that the TA's office is a locked door with a security card
reader and a phone on the wall next to it. I picked up the
phone and told the woman at the other end that I wanted to
meet with a TA, and she told me I should go to the walk-in
Taxpayer Service center on the other side of the floor. What
the point is of having local TA offices in all the states when
you can't actually meet in person with them, I have no idea.

So I walked across the floor to the TS office and waited 50
minutes to speak to someone there. The man with whom I finally
got to speak for a half hour seemed rather clueless. He could
not tell me why my Schedule H had been changed, could not
confirm or deny that my 1040X had been received and processed,
and could not even provide me with a detailed transcript of my
return. He said it was going to be emailed to him on Monday,
after which he'd print it out and mail it to me. He also said
he had no idea what he or I would be able to learn from it.

After this, I tromped out of the TS office, walked back across
the floor to the locked door of the TA office, and called
their Boston phone number on my cell phone. I proceeded to
spend a half hour on the phone with a woman who I think was
trying to be genuinely helpful, but in the end, she couldn't
tell me anything more than all the people with whom I'd spoken
previously. The only advice she had to offer was to call back
the toll-free number on Monday and try again.

I got the distinct impression, about which I could have been
mistaken, that she wasn't a "real" Taxpayer Advocate. She made
a comment at one point that the "advocate on call had left for
the day." I think she was trying to cover for the fact that he
had clocked out early for the weekend.

I've now spent four hours today trying to get my tax issues
resolved, and I'm really no closer now than I was at the start.

I have two obvious questions:

1) What's the best way to get in touch with someone who will
actually be able to help me, without spending hours more being
bounced from person to person? Call the TA office again on
Monday? Call the toll-free TA number? Call the "business and
specialty tax line" and put up with yet another absurd hold
because at the end of it will be someone with a clue? Call the
general IRS number like the woman at the TA office suggested?
Give up on the phone and send the IRS a letter? Something
else? Surely the experts in this newsgroup have some good
advice about how to proceed.

2) Is there any point in complaining to anyone about this
debacle, and if so, to whom and via what channel should I do
so?

Thanks for any advice you can provide.

Regards,

Jonathan Kamens
 
P

paultry

I e-filed my Federal return around February 18.

A week later, I filed a 1040X because my company issued me a
W-2c, due to increased wages due to disqualifying disposition
in December that didn't get straightened out until February.
The 1040X said I owed $147 more, which TurboTax claimed would
be direct-debited from my bank account like my original
payment from my e-filing.

The original payment was direct-debited on April 18 as
expected. The additional $147 was not, and hasn't been since
then.

Last week, I got a notice "CP22A" from the IRS: "We made the
changes you requested to your 2010 Form 1040 to adjust your
Schedule H." I never requested any changes to my Schedule H.
The notice said $34.00 in additional taxes plus $0.17 in
interest are due by June 20.

I called the number on the notice today to try to straighten
out (a) what changes had been made to my Schedule H, since I
never in fact requested any, (b) why the payment for my 1040X
hadn't been direct-debited, and (c) whether what happened was,
as I suspected, that the changes I supposedly requested to my
Schedule H were in fact someone screwing up when processing my
1040X. Although why it would take them until May 30 to process
a 1040X mailed on February 25, I have no idea.

I spent an hour and twenty minutes on the phone with the IRS.
Got transferred four times. Nobody helped me. The final
transfer brought me to a recording telling me I had to call
the "business and specialty tax line" at a different number,
and then disconnected me.

I called the business and specialty tax line and spoke to an
operator who said she was transferring me to "accounts." When
I heard the recording informing me for the third time in two
hours that I would have to listen to that insanity-inducing
30-second-loop hold music for more than 15 minutes, I threw up
my hands in disgust and hung up.

Since I work in downtown Boston, I decided I would walk over
to the JFK Federal Building and try in person to get help from
the Taxpayer Advocate office there. When I got there, I found
that the TA's office is a locked door with a security card
reader and a phone on the wall next to it. I picked up the
phone and told the woman at the other end that I wanted to
meet with a TA, and she told me I should go to the walk-in
Taxpayer Service center on the other side of the floor. What
the point is of having local TA offices in all the states when
you can't actually meet in person with them, I have no idea.

So I walked across the floor to the TS office and waited 50
minutes to speak to someone there. The man with whom I finally
got to speak for a half hour seemed rather clueless. He could
not tell me why my Schedule H had been changed, could not
confirm or deny that my 1040X had been received and processed,
and could not even provide me with a detailed transcript of my
return. He said it was going to be emailed to him on Monday,
after which he'd print it out and mail it to me. He also said
he had no idea what he or I would be able to learn from it.

After this, I tromped out of the TS office, walked back across
the floor to the locked door of the TA office, and called
their Boston phone number on my cell phone. I proceeded to
spend a half hour on the phone with a woman who I think was
trying to be genuinely helpful, but in the end, she couldn't
tell me anything more than all the people with whom I'd spoken
previously. The only advice she had to offer was to call back
the toll-free number on Monday and try again.

I got the distinct impression, about which I could have been
mistaken, that she wasn't a "real" Taxpayer Advocate. She made
a comment at one point that the "advocate on call had left for
the day." I think she was trying to cover for the fact that he
had clocked out early for the weekend.

I've now spent four hours today trying to get my tax issues
resolved, and I'm really no closer now than I was at the start.

I have two obvious questions:

1) What's the best way to get in touch with someone who will
actually be able to help me, without spending hours more being
bounced from person to person? Call the TA office again on
Monday? Call the toll-free TA number? Call the "business and
specialty tax line" and put up with yet another absurd hold
because at the end of it will be someone with a clue? Call the
general IRS number like the woman at the TA office suggested?
Give up on the phone and send the IRS a letter? Something
else? Surely the experts in this newsgroup have some good
advice about how to proceed.
I'd start by ordering a transcript of the 2010 year by
calling 800-908-9946 (in case the local Taxpayer Service guy
doesn't come through). People here can help you decipher
the transcript to see where your account stands.

I've found it is best to ask for Taxpayer Advocate
assistance by detailed letter. Though they are usually
pretty good about responding to phone calls, a written
request that meets Taxpayer Advocate criteria ("..if you
have tried to resolve your tax problem through normal IRS
channels and have gotten nowhere, or you believe an IRS
procedure just isn't working as it should") usually ensures
they will open a case to work on your issue.
2) Is there any point in complaining to anyone about this
debacle, and if so, to whom and via what channel should I do
so?
Probably not much point in complaining. The system has been
broken for years in spite of many complaints. Best to seek
to resolve your issue and move on.
 
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D

Don Priebe

A week later, I filed a 1040X because my company issued me a
W-2c, due to increased wages due to disqualifying disposition
in December that didn't get straightened out until February.
The 1040X said I owed $147 more, which TurboTax claimed would
be direct-debited from my bank account like my original
payment from my e-filing.
There is NO option for a direct debit from your bank account on an amended
return. There is no place on the 1040-X for any banking information, nor
any place for you to authorize a debit. The instructions say check or money
order, or use the (third-party) credit/debit card service for a fee.

You did MAIL in the 1040-X, right?

[Not that this explains the confusion about the Schedule H adjustment.]
 
J

Jonathan Kamens

paultry said:
I'd start by ordering a transcript of the 2010 year by
calling 800-908-9946 (in case the local Taxpayer Service guy
doesn't come through).
Done, thanks.

Can you explain to me why the people at the walk-in taxpayer
service center are not able to view / print a transcript?
I've found it is best to ask for Taxpayer Advocate
assistance by detailed letter.
I will do that as well, and I hope a written complaint will
have a more beneficial effect than the half hour I spent on
Friday dealing with the woman in the TA's office whom I
suspect wasn't actually a TA or qualified to be helping me.
Probably not much point in complaining. The system has been
broken for years in spite of many complaints. Best to seek
to resolve your issue and move on.
Fair enough, but I'll probably send a bitchy letter to my
congressman when this is all over.

Thanks for the help.
 
J

Jonathan Kamens

Don Priebe said:
There is NO option for a direct debit from your bank account on an amended
return. There is no place on the 1040-X for any banking information, nor
any place for you to authorize a debit. The instructions say check or money
order, or use the (third-party) credit/debit card service for a fee.
Then I guess I have a bone to pick with Intuit, since the
filing instructions for the 1040X explicitly said that the
payment would be direct-debited. Sounds an awful lot like a
TurboTax bug. I assumed they'd get the bank account
information from my original 1040 on file.

The amount of interest I'm going to end up paying is less than
a dollar, so it's not like it's worth trying to get Intuit to
reimburse me for the bug, but still, I should try to find a
way to report to them that their software gave me (and
probably others as well) incorrect filing instructions.
You did MAIL in the 1040-X, right?
Yes.

Thanks for the response.
 
P

paultry

Done, thanks.

Can you explain to me why the people at the walk-in taxpayer
service center are not able to view / print a transcript?
According to IRM 21.2.3.4, Transcripts Procedures,
http://www.irs.gov/irm/part21/irm_21-002-003.html#d0e148
email delivery is just one option for retrieving a
transcript. If the account was on-line, he could have
pulled it up on his computer screen. If the account was
off-line, the email route may have been the quickest
available to him.
 
J

Jonathan Kamens

paultry said:
According to IRM 21.2.3.4, Transcripts Procedures,
http://www.irs.gov/irm/part21/irm_21-002-003.html#d0e148
email delivery is just one option for retrieving a
transcript. If the account was on-line, he could have
pulled it up on his computer screen. If the account was
off-line, the email route may have been the quickest
available to him.
That wasn't really a question. Let me try again...

I simply can't understand why the IRS hasn't taken steps to
ensure that something as straightforward and obviously
relevant and useful as being able to view a transcript of last
year's tax return is always available to IRS employees who
are in positions where they are supposed to be helping people
solve problems with their tax returns.

Your answer told me how things are right now from a
facts-on-the-ground perspective. I'm asking at a higher level
than that... why are things that way? Why isn't everyone's
transcript available to IRS employees who need to see it to
do their jobs, i.e., to help people?

Is there a good reason for this, or is it just incompetence
and shortsightedness?
 
M

MTW

My understanding (based on a combination of experience and anecdotal
reports) is that when a return is efiled with a payment to be debited
IN THE FUTURE, the return isn't fully processed within the IRS system
until the payment is received. In fact, it might take up to two weeks
AFTER the payment date for the transcript to be fully updated. So, if
your payment was scheduled for around April 15th, but you filed the
amended return BEFORE that, I suppose it's possible that the amended
return found nothing to post against (because the original return had
not yet been fully processed) and thus was ignored. Or something like
that.

My own recommendation, which I fully realize won't do you any good at
this point, is to always wait until several weeks AFTER April 15th
before filing an amended return.

MTW
 
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G

Gene E. Utterback, EA, RFC, ABA

Jonathan Kamens said:
snipped

Can you explain to me why the people at the walk-in taxpayer
service center are not able to view / print a transcript?
The reason I was given was because the people working at those service
centers are there to exam returns and work out collection problems, NOT to
act as a service kiosk for the delivery of transcript info. Its a crappy
explanation, but its what the office manager of a local IRS satellite office
told me.

To be fair, the people working in those offices are tasked with regular
duties - just like anyone else who has a job. Having taxpayers come in off
the street and interrupting them to get a transcript, when there are other
ways, interfers with their work. I am NOT suggesting that the IRS shouldn't
help, just pointing out that it is hard to do scheduled work when you're
constantly interrupted. I also understand that because of budgetary reasons
the IRS no longer has a dedicated "front desk" person who sits there waiting
for walk ins.
I will do that as well, and I hope a written complaint will
have a more beneficial effect than the half hour I spent on
Friday dealing with the woman in the TA's office whom I
suspect wasn't actually a TA or qualified to be helping me.
Don't hold your breath and don't bother complaining to the Taxpayer
Advocate, that's not their function. If you have a legitimate complaint
about how the IRS treated you contact the Treasury Inspector General for Tax
Administration (TIGTA) in DC.

And for the record, you actually contributed to the problem - though I'm
sure it wasn't intentional. You made a common mistake by amending your
return too soon. Even though e-filed returns go into the system
automatically, they still get processed in batches. Original returns go
into "the system" while amended returns get looked at by real live people.
By amending just a week after filing the original return its likely that the
person given your amended return could not see or get to your original
return.

Processing of amended returns can take up to SIX (6) Months.

Without going over your entire return I can't tell for sure, but I'd guess
that the CP22A notice was NOT related to your amended return.

What you may want to do is to respond to the CP22A notice with a letter
asking for a meeting with a local case officer to resolve your issue. And
while you did your own return, you may want to get with a local tax pro who
uses the IRS E-Services System (though I doubt it will be cost efficient for
you). With E-Services, a tax pro can send electronic communications to the
IRS and they generally respond within 3 days or so. They don't always get
it done the first time around, frequently because they can't SEE everything
they need to from the transcript systems.

And by the way, there are several different transcripts you can request -
1 - wage and income transcript - shows income reported to your SSN;
2 - account transcript - shows taxes, penalties & interest assessed,
payments made and adjustments to your account;
3 - return transcript - shows the line item summaries from your return.
Does NOT show details - if you had three jobs, each paying you $10K Line 7
of this transcript will show $30K. You'd use the wage and income transcript
to get the detail;

When I pull transcripts I pull these three to make sure I can everything the
IRS has on file.

Good luck,
Gene E. Utterback, EA, RFC, ABA
4 - one more, I think but I can't recall the name.
 
P

paultry

Gene,

I always enjoy reading your measured, informative posts,
but, I think, in this case, you are too accepting of your
local IRS manager's explanation. First, he/she is not
furthering the "top quality service" goal of the IRS Mission
Statement, and I doubt that his/her manager would support
his/her position. As to Exam and Collection personnel
having other duties, when they are detailed out to Taxpayer
Service, whether for one taxpayer contact or longer, their
primary responsibility becomes Taxpayer Service. Providing
that transcript is not then an interruption, but a
responsibility, and a service gladly performed. Scheduled
work may suffer, but that is the nature of the beast. Been
there, done that. I don't know if your local office has a
walk-in Taxpayer Assistance Center function but the OP's
Boston office certainly does.
http://www.irs.gov/localcontacts/article/0,,id=98286,00.html
And the services provided by that office
http://www.irs.gov/localcontacts/article/0,,id=159964,00.html include
Account Inquiries, Adjustments, and Transcripts. While it
is not a function of the Taxpayer Advocate to handle
complaints about IRS personnel and procedures, it is their
job to assist taxpayers who can't resolve their tax issues
through normal IRS channels. If the OP's Taxpayer
Assistance Center can't or won't provide assistance, TAS is
the place to go.
 
J

Jonathan Kamens

MTW said:
My own recommendation, which I fully realize won't do you any good at
this point, is to always wait until several weeks AFTER April 15th
before filing an amended return.
I'll remember that for the future, but the problem is that
the amended return required that I pay more money, and I
didn't want to pay interest.

I suppose I should have sent in a check for the $147 and then
filed the corresponding 1040X after April 18.

Of course, I might have had a better idea I was supposed to
do that if TurboTax hadn't told me that the $147 would be
direct-debited. *sigh*
 
J

Jonathan Kamens

The reason I was given was because the people working at those service
centers are there to exam returns and work out collection problems, NOT to
act as a service kiosk for the delivery of transcript info.
This doesn't make any sense. Paultry's followup was correct.
The Taxpayer Service center I want to was specifically
intended for walk-ins. They've got a whole system set-up with
numbered queues, cubicles, a board and oral announcements
indicating which number is currently being served and at
which cubicle number, etc.
To be fair, the people working in those offices are tasked with regular
duties - just like anyone else who has a job. Having taxpayers come in off
the street and interrupting them to get a transcript, when there are other
ways, interfers with their work.
As far as I could tell, for the people working at the Taxpayer
Service center I visited, their work WAS to help walk-ins. As
Paultry said, I wasn't interefering with their work; I WAS
their work.
I am NOT suggesting that the IRS shouldn't
help, just pointing out that it is hard to do scheduled work when you're
constantly interrupted. I also understand that because of budgetary reasons
the IRS no longer has a dedicated "front desk" person who sits there waiting
for walk ins.
There was, in fact, a front-desk person who listened to me
briefly describe my problem and then assigned me a number.
Interestingly, it was clear that there were several different
queues with different numbering schemes, and the dispatcher
was putting people in different queues based on the nature of
their problem. Alas, that didn't help me talk to someone who
could actually help me.
Don't hold your breath and don't bother complaining to the Taxpayer
Advocate, that's not their function. If you have a legitimate complaint
about how the IRS treated you contact the Treasury Inspector General for Tax
Administration (TIGTA) in DC.
I will do that.
And for the record, you actually contributed to the problem - though I'm
sure it wasn't intentional. You made a common mistake by amending your
return too soon. Even though e-filed returns go into the system
automatically, they still get processed in batches. Original returns go
into "the system" while amended returns get looked at by real live people.
By amending just a week after filing the original return its likely that the
person given your amended return could not see or get to your original
return.
OK, so this kind of thing makes no sense to people like me
who do not spend all of their time dealing with the IRS. It
also makes no sense to process wonks like me who simply
cannot understand why the IRS can't do better than it does.

I e-filed my return. I got back a notice from the IRS that my
return had been accepted. As a reasonably intelligent person
who has not read the Internal Revenue Manual, I think it was
reasonable for me to conclude that once my return was
"accepted," it was "in the system" and I could safely file an
amended return, and it would be processed correctly.

If that's not the case, well, then, that's just silly. It's
broken and it needs to be fixed.
What you may want to do is to respond to the CP22A notice with a letter
asking for a meeting with a local case officer to resolve your issue.
I will do that if the Taxpayer Advocate's office, to which I
sent a letter yesterday, does not turn out to be helpful.

I've already sent a payment for $147.90 to the IRS, so I can
take my time now and solve the paperwork problem in the
manner that is the least work for me. There's no reason for
me to pursue multiple avenues (TA's office, local case
officer, etc.) at the same time.

Thanks,

Jon
 
J

Jonathan Kamens

Today, I figured out on my own, without any help from anyone
at the IRS, what I think happened to my tax return. Well,
mostly, anyway; there are still unanswered questions.

As I've mentioned previously in this newsgroup, my wife and I
employ steady babysitters, and we pay them enough every year
to require withholding Social Security and Medicare and
remitting them as well as FUTA to the IRS with our tax return
each year, on Schedule H.

Unfortunately, I made an error when filling out the Schedule H
for 1010 and underreported the amount of wages paid to the
various babysitters. I have no idea how this happened, but in
any case, it means we underpaid our taxes.

Since we withhold, we have to send our babysitters and the
Social Security Administration (SSA) W-2's. I filled out the
W-2's correctly, which means the withholding amounts reported
on them were different from, and greater than, the amount
reported on Schedule H.

I think the SSA provides W-2 data to the IRS, and I think the
IRS, upon receiving the correct W-2 data, cross-checked it
against my return, corrected my return to reflect the SSA
data, and sent me the notice reflecting changes I had
supposedly requested.

Unanswered questions:

* The transcript the guy I saw at the JFK Building mailed me
last week shows that my amended return was received, but I was
never sent a notice or bill for the amount due under my
amended return (recall that I thought it was going to be
direct-debited so I didn't send a check). Is it possible that
they haven't yet processed the amended return even though I
sent it in February?

* The transcript shows 05-16-2011 as the "Tax return filed"
date, which is clearly bogus since my return was filed in
February and they correctly direct-debited the payment due
from that return on April 18. My best guess is that the date
was updated when they changed my return based on the SSA data.

* The amount the IRS billed me for, $34, isn't what I
actually owe when I correct the error on my Schedule H; I
have no idea how the IRS came up with that number.

* Why hasn't the Taxpayer Advocate's office responded to the
letter I sent them a week ago? Is that typical?

To (I hope) fix all this, I'm filing a second 1040X with the
correction to Schedule H. I'm enclosing with it the previous
1040X with "PREVIOUS 1040X" written across the top of it and
with a note in Section III of the new 1040X stating
explicitly that this is my second one; a copy of my amended
1040; and a copy of my amended Schedule H.

I'm enclosing with the second 1040X a check for the additional
amount due plus interest. Recall that I already send a check
with a 1040-V last week to cover my first 1040X that they
never direct-debited or billed me for.

And then I'm going to cross my fingers and hope that the IRS
will eventually figure all this out on their own and not
bother me again.
 
G

Gene E. Utterback, EA, RFC, ABA

paultry said:
Gene,

I always enjoy reading your measured, informative posts, but, I think, in
this case, you are too accepting of your local IRS manager's explanation.
First, he/she is not furthering the "top quality service" goal of the IRS
Mission Statement, and I doubt that his/her manager would support his/her
position. As to Exam and Collection personnel having other duties, when
they are detailed out to Taxpayer Service, whether for one taxpayer
contact or longer, their primary responsibility becomes Taxpayer Service.
Providing that transcript is not then an interruption, but a
responsibility, and a service gladly performed. Scheduled work may
suffer, but that is the nature of the beast. Been there, done that. I
don't know if your local office has a walk-in Taxpayer Assistance Center
function but the OP's Boston office certainly does.
http://www.irs.gov/localcontacts/article/0,,id=98286,00.html And the
services provided by that office
http://www.irs.gov/localcontacts/article/0,,id=159964,00.html include
Account Inquiries, Adjustments, and Transcripts. While it is not a
function of the Taxpayer Advocate to handle complaints about IRS personnel
and procedures, it is their job to assist taxpayers who can't resolve
their tax issues through normal IRS channels. If the OP's Taxpayer
Assistance Center can't or won't provide assistance, TAS is the place to
go.
Paultry makes an interesting observation. I made an assumption about MY
local IRS office without considering that other satellite offices may have
expanded services available on site. Our local office, the last time I
visited, limited its activities to seeing local taxpayers with either exam
or collection issues and wasn't set up as a walk in service center. In
retrospect I can appreciate that other offices may be tasked with other
functions.

And I appreciate your comments about my postings. I do try to be
informative, though sometimes I too make mistakes.

Gene E. Utterback, EA, RFC, ABA
 
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J

Jonathan Kamens

The Taxpayer Advocate finally called me today in response to
the letter I sent a week ago. I suppose a one-week turnaround
isn't that bad.

My theory about what happened -- that the SSA sent their data
to the IRS and the IRS discovered from it that my Schedule H
was wrong -- was incorrect.

Rather, it appears that the IRS simply jumped the shark when
processing my 1040X. They did not enter the amendments my
1040X said they should make, and instead managed to botch some
other data in my return which didn't need to be changed at all.

The Taxpayer Advocate had a copy of my 1040X in front of me
when we spoke. She asked me to send her a copy of the second
1040X that I mailed in today, and she's going to try to
"merge" them and produce a single 1040X that will correct all
of the errors (the IRS's and mine) in my return, and then send
the resulting 1040X to me for me to sign and send back to
her, at which point she said she'll make sure it gets
processed properly.

I have no idea how that's going to interact with the 1040X I
mailed in today before hearing back from the Taxpayer
Advocate.

At least I've sent the IRS checks at this point for all that I
actually owe, so assuming that they credit those checks
successfully to my account, when the paperwork nightmare is
straightened out I presumably won't owe any interest or
penalties.
 

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