Chip & PIN - Bin the PIN.


J

James

When I applied for my credit card a box was available asking if I
wanted a PIN with my card which would enable me to draw money at cash
machines. I left the box unticked. PINS are now being issued
automaticaly whither you asked for one or not.

Other than obtaining 'expensive' cash from an ATM I wonder if anyone
can give me
one good reason for having a PIN with my credit card.

Here are some of the reasons why I am BINNING the PIN.

1. If your a victim of fraud with a PIN before you report the card
lost or stolen then you have to prove you weren't negligent with your
PIN. You can deny a signature, but it's a lot more difficlut to deny
not being negligent with your PIN.

2. Issuing PINs with Credit Cards is easy access to cash for the weak
willed.

3. UK Chipped cards can still be cloned an used overseas within
hours. (This is because they are retaining the magstrip and you can
use a cloned card with PIN at overseas ATMs).

4. How do you catch an ID thief thats obtained a genuine card and
PIN? The worst that can happen to them is that their card is withheld
at an ATM. An idication and warning to them that they've been
rumbled.

5. PIN Security or lack of.
At least one card company (SAGA) suggests that you change all your
cards to the same PIN!
Look at the design of floating PIN Pads (Chip & PIN Video). It is
suggested you enter your PIN with one hand and cover the pad with the
other. Unfortunately you need a third hand.

6. PIN Confidence, Crooks are acquiring PINs through shoulder
surfing, bogus calls, phishing on the internet and using micro
cameras. Very difficult to prove your not negligent with your PIN.

7. Report on the Northampton Trial page 6, 'A PIN proves that the
cardholder is the genuine owner.'

8. Safeway customers love it. I checked in my local Safeways, this
was the reply from customer service -
don't' worry if you've forgotten your PIN, you will be timed out and
all you do is sign per usual. Lots of customers are timed out. By the
time they dig their pin from out of their handbag they end up signing.

If your sent a PIN phone your card company and ask them to disable the
PIN.
(Capitol One confirmed today that they can put a block on a PIN on the
cardholders instructions, and the cardholder can continue to sign).
Send your PIN back un-opened to your card issuer, they will soon get
the message.

James
 
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T

Tim

Other than obtaining 'expensive' cash from an ATM
I wonder if anyone can give me one good reason
for having a PIN with my credit card.
Ermm - so that you can pay at all retailers from next year? ;-)


Here are some of the reasons why I am BINNING the PIN.
What are you going to do when retailers start to refuse signatures (after
the "introduction" period) and begin to only accept PIN authorisation?

Look at the design of floating PIN Pads (Chip & PIN Video). It is
suggested you enter your PIN with one hand and cover the pad with the
other. Unfortunately you need a third hand.
What's the third hand for??

If your sent a PIN phone your card company and ask them
to disable the PIN.
Why should I?
 
A

Alex

Without a hint of irony, (e-mail address removed) (James) astounded uk.finance
If your sent a PIN phone your card company and ask them to disable the
PIN.
And as the merchants over time decide not to allow PIN bypass, and CVM lists
are modified to remove signature checking, you're left with less and less
outlets in which to use your card.
 
T

Tumbleweed

<snipp>

Indeed, shoulder surfing (and other ways of obtaining PINs) may possibly be
a big issue in the future, I'm not sure what happened in France as they have
had PINs for years, did it happen there? But its certainly going to be more
difficult to prove you didnt misuse your PIN, or fraudulently deny the
transaction took place, if soemone does manage to get hold of your card and
PIN.

Obviously, the security isnt for us, its for the card companies.
 
T

Tim

But its certainly going to be more difficult
to prove you didnt misuse your PIN ...
Shouldn't it be the other way around? - the card company should need to
prove that you *did* act negligently, rather than *you* proving that you
didn't!
 
T

tasty chicken

Without a hint of irony, (e-mail address removed) (James) astounded
uk.finance on 14 Feb 2004 by announcing:


And as the merchants over time decide not to allow PIN bypass, and CVM
lists are modified to remove signature checking, you're left with less
and less outlets in which to use your card.
So you mean smaller and smaller outlets, or fewer and fewer?

squawk!
 
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T

tasty chicken

Shouldn't it be the other way around? - the card company should need to
prove that you *did* act negligently, rather than *you* proving that you
didn't!
A photo AND PIN on the card will do better than either measure alone.

In countries where there is just a PIN, the most disturbing thing is
people are robbed of their card and assulted/intimidated to reveal
their PIN. Adding the photo raises the bar.

squawk!
 
C

Chris

tasty chicken said:
A photo AND PIN on the card will do better than either measure alone.
Thats an idea, maybe they could have half the card with a photo instead of
the "novel" designs you get - the last lot of photo cards I saw were awful
little things like you get on driving licences.
 
T

tasty chicken

Thats an idea, maybe they could have half the card with a photo instead of
the "novel" designs you get - the last lot of photo cards I saw were awful
little things like you get on driving licences.
I have a VISA card with my signature, a PIN and my photo.

It's not the best photo of me, but it's a photo :)

squawk!
 
N

NorwichLad

In countries where there is just a PIN, the most disturbing thing is
people are robbed of their card and assulted/intimidated to reveal
their PIN.
how does the mugger know the victim has just given them the correct PIN ?
 
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1

1keytools david

When I applied for my credit card a box was available asking if I
wanted a PIN with my card which would enable me to draw money at cash
machines. I left the box unticked. PINS are now being issued
automaticaly whither you asked for one or not.

Other than obtaining 'expensive' cash from an ATM I wonder if anyone
can give me
one good reason for having a PIN with my credit card.

Here are some of the reasons why I am BINNING the PIN.

4. How do you catch an ID thief thats obtained a genuine card and
PIN? The worst that can happen to them is that their card is withheld
at an ATM. An idication and warning to them that they've been
rumbled.
You program the ATM to
a. detect the stolen card and send a high priority message to bank
staff who ask the cops to attend

b. then take a long time to respond

c. then respond with a message that the central computer has problems
/ do you want to try again

d. repeat b and c indefinitely and hopefully meanwhile enough time for
the cops to collect the guy by the ATM.

Unfortunately after a while the crims would catch on and disappear
faster. They'd probably catch some for a while tho

David. 1keytools.

Software author. (please edit my email addr. to prove you're not a dumb 'bot)
Web Log Analyzer by Search Term http://www.1keytools.com/wlabstfeatures.htm
Kybie GetEmAll - Make IE an offline browser http://www.1keytools.com/offline_browser.htm
 
J

James

tasty chicken said:
So you mean smaller and smaller outlets, or fewer and fewer?

squawk!
A PIN with a credit card should be personal choice. Chips will stop
counterfeit which accounted fo more than half of the £200 million lost
to fraud in shops last year. The cost of Chip and PIN an estimated
£1.1 billion, and we are all paying indirectly.

I can't see what you suggest happening, not All countries are signed
up as yet to Chip and PIN, The USA I am led to believe are not going
down this road. Can you see UK shops displaying the various card logs
turning away overseas cardholders because they sign? If Chip and PIN
had to become the universal 'norm'it would be a long, long time away.

Tesco filling stations operate pay at the pumps. You don't have to
sign anything, or enter a PIN and your card isn't checked. Unless
cards have been reported lost and a block put on, or buying petrol is
an unusual spending pattern then Tesco are taking the hit for fraud.
You can drive in, fill-up use a stolen or cloned card and drive away
unchallenged. Some may say this is irresponsible retailing - me for
one. The Association of Payment Clearing Services, responsible for
co-ordinating the fight against card fraud can do nothing about this.
It is a matter for Tesco. Card issuers likewise. What incentive is
there for retailers selling low value goods who own their own
terminals to go to the expense of updating to Chip & PIN hardware?

Chip and PIN does protect the banks and retailers, unfortunately it
does nothing to protect victims of PIN card fraud. Just as a matter of
interest the Canadian Banks describe in their terms and conditions
what is considered being negligent with a PIN. We have nothing.

If your a victim of fraud in a shop. You can always disown a signature
but you'll find it a lot harder to disown a PIN.

BIN THE PIN.
James.
 
C

Chris

James said:
tasty chicken <[email protected]> wrote in message
Tesco filling stations operate pay at the pumps. You don't have to
sign anything, or enter a PIN and your card isn't checked. Unless
cards have been reported lost and a block put on, or buying petrol is
an unusual spending pattern then Tesco are taking the hit for fraud.
You can drive in, fill-up use a stolen or cloned card and drive away
unchallenged. Some may say this is irresponsible retailing - me for
one. The Association of Payment Clearing Services, responsible for
co-ordinating the fight against card fraud can do nothing about this.
It is a matter for Tesco. Card issuers likewise. What incentive is
there for retailers selling low value goods who own their own
terminals to go to the expense of updating to Chip & PIN hardware?
Actually I would have though that is the ideal situation for chip and pin
and wouldn't be surprised if tesco are already doing it, particularly as
they haven't yet finished rolling out chip readers in store (I assume that
the pin pads just plug in easily as I haven't seen those yet in any of the
branches which have chip readers and will be plugged in (by local staff?)
when they make the decision to go live)
 
A

Alex

Without a hint of irony, "Chris" <[email protected]> astounded uk.finance
Actually I would have though that is the ideal situation for chip and pin
and wouldn't be surprised if tesco are already doing it, particularly as
they haven't yet finished rolling out chip readers in store (I assume that
the pin pads just plug in easily as I haven't seen those yet in any of the
branches which have chip readers and will be plugged in (by local staff?)
when they make the decision to go live)
The main incentive for Tesco not to upgrade yet is that they estimate the
cost of the fraud will be less than the cost of the upgrade. Once this
equation balances or reverses, the PINpads will probably appear overnight.
 
T

tasty chicken

A PIN with a credit card should be personal choice.
Sure, but only if *you* wear the extra risk - I object to you expecting
to share the extra risk with me.
Chips will stop
counterfeit which accounted fo more than half of the £200 million lost
to fraud in shops last year. The cost of Chip and PIN an estimated
£1.1 billion, and we are all paying indirectly.
The banks are in a better position than you or I with regard to the
actual figures.
I can't see what you suggest happening, not All countries are signed
up as yet to Chip and PIN,
Well, many countries have had the system since the mid-to-late 80s, so
they won't need to.
The USA I am led to believe are not going
down this road. Can you see UK shops displaying the various card logs
turning away overseas cardholders because they sign?
Yes, and I have seen this happen. If the banks make it a requirement,
they will either face merchant revolt or merchants will just get on
with it.
If Chip and PIN
had to become the universal 'norm'it would be a long, long time away.
This is just your typical British approach: it will take a long time so
forget it. No, I say if it is worth doing, even if it will take a
while, better start sooner than later.
Tesco filling stations operate pay at the pumps. You don't have to
sign anything, or enter a PIN and your card isn't checked. Unless
cards have been reported lost and a block put on, or buying petrol is
an unusual spending pattern then Tesco are taking the hit for fraud.
Have you noticed the little cameras pointing at you as you pay at the pump?
You can drive in, fill-up use a stolen or cloned card and drive away
unchallenged. Some may say this is irresponsible retailing - me for
one. The Association of Payment Clearing Services, responsible for
co-ordinating the fight against card fraud can do nothing about this.
Hogwash. See above. The last thing a crook wants is their face on the box.
It is a matter for Tesco. Card issuers likewise. What incentive is
there for retailers selling low value goods who own their own
terminals to go to the expense of updating to Chip & PIN hardware?
It's about evolution of technologies in the market. Maybe the overall
deal will be better for them?
Chip and PIN does protect the banks and retailers, unfortunately it
does nothing to protect victims of PIN card fraud.
Are these interests not aligned?
Just as a matter of
interest the Canadian Banks describe in their terms and conditions
what is considered being negligent with a PIN. We have nothing.
It differs from bank to bank, but in the absence of explicit reference
to negligence, there is a legal process for establishing what is
reasonable or not.
If your a victim of fraud in a shop. You can always disown a signature
How?

but you'll find it a lot harder to disown a PIN.
Do you have any evidence that you will be required to??

Squawk!
 
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T

tasty chicken

how does the mugger know the victim has just given them the correct PIN ?
They get a friend to "look after" the victim.

Obviously, this can happen anywhere where a PIN allows cash withdrawls.

Squawk!
 
T

tasty chicken

You program the ATM to a. detect the stolen card and send a high
priority message to bank
staff who ask the cops to attend
Or just take a photo of the person using the ATM. Sure your criminal
would soon figure out how to use a balaclava or similar, but it's a bit
obvious in public places (most ATMs are in high-circulation locations).

Squawk!
 
U

usenet

tasty chicken said:
Well, many countries have had the system since the mid-to-late 80s, so
they won't need to.
.... but there are many different systems aren't there? E.g. the
French system isn't compatible with the one we're going to get.
Have you noticed the little cameras pointing at you as you pay at the pump?
Much good they'll do when I buy petrol on my motorbike.
Hogwash. See above. The last thing a crook wants is their face on the box.
See above! :)
 
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U

usenet

tasty chicken said:
Or just take a photo of the person using the ATM. Sure your criminal
would soon figure out how to use a balaclava or similar, but it's a bit
obvious in public places (most ATMs are in high-circulation locations).
Wear a crash helmet, very easy and quite common enough not to raise
any suspicions.
 

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