Compulsory work based training but not "new deal".


C

Cosmic Horizon

Hi,

I am over 25 years of age and I've been unemployed for the past 16 months,
and before that I was on "New Deal" for 13 weeks. Now I have been told in
an interview by a lady at my local job centre that I have to go on another
compulsory course otherwise the powers that be will judge me to be devoting
insufficient efforts at obtaining employment. This is despite the fact that
I do in fact spend quite a bit of time searching for work.

Now I have a couple of questions. Given this is *not* "new deal" did the
lady in question really have the power to compel me to go on this course
given that I consider I *am* making sufficient efforts to obtain work?

Assuming the answer to this question is yes, why have I not been put on "new
deal" since it is 16 months since I was last on it? The reason I am
concerned here is that those on new deal receive £15 extra a week where as I
will only receive £10 extra a week. I appreciate that it might sound a
totally insignificant amount, but it does add up to £65 over the 13 weeks,
which might go a long way towards paying my electricity bill!

Basically I am unsure if I wish to go on this course since I am already
studying part time at my local college in order to enhance my prospects of
obtaining employment, and obviously attending work based training may
jeopardise my chances of passing these courses, and also when I went on "new
deal" before it was simply a question of reading newspapers for 13 weeks
(along with a couple of others I was never put on work placement). So
basically it was a total waste of time.

Any comments much appreciated.
 
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A

Andy

Hi,

I am over 25 years of age and I've been unemployed for the past 16 months,
and before that I was on "New Deal" for 13 weeks. Now I have been told in
an interview by a lady at my local job centre that I have to go on another
compulsory course otherwise the powers that be will judge me to be devoting
insufficient efforts at obtaining employment. This is despite the fact that
I do in fact spend quite a bit of time searching for work.

Now I have a couple of questions. Given this is *not* "new deal" did the
lady in question really have the power to compel me to go on this course
given that I consider I *am* making sufficient efforts to obtain work?

Assuming the answer to this question is yes, why have I not been put on "new
deal" since it is 16 months since I was last on it? The reason I am
concerned here is that those on new deal receive £15 extra a week where as I
will only receive £10 extra a week. I appreciate that it might sound a
totally insignificant amount, but it does add up to £65 over the 13 weeks,
which might go a long way towards paying my electricity bill!

Basically I am unsure if I wish to go on this course since I am already
studying part time at my local college in order to enhance my prospects of
obtaining employment, and obviously attending work based training may
jeopardise my chances of passing these courses, and also when I went on "new
deal" before it was simply a question of reading newspapers for 13 weeks
(along with a couple of others I was never put on work placement). So
basically it was a total waste of time.

Any comments much appreciated.
I have been on New Deal 25+ now since about the last week of this past
June and I can tell you that so far my experience of New Deal is one
of a total farce!!!!!.

At the beginning when I was notified that I was going on to New Deal
as I had been out of work for 16 months now that the new deal (so
called personal) advisor I will be seing for my first Interview will
be leaving and then I will be seeing a new advisor who is Steph.
Anyway for my 1st ND interview I turned up at the job centre 15
minutes before the appointment time of 11:00 am only to be kept on
being told by the new deal advisor every 10 minutes that she would see
me in a minute as she was too buisy at the moment (doing nothing in my
opinion), this exercise went on for about 20 minutes into the allotted
interview time before I could actually see her.
Before I could manage to park my backside in the chair the ND
advisor said that "I notice that you main skills are in the I.T
industry, well I no nothing about Information Technology whatsoever" I
thought to myself well you are going to be a fat lot of good in
assisting me aren't you.
The only advice she could you give me that came out of the Interview
was that I should start applying for general office administration
jobs, I thought to myself how much brain power the ND adviser had to
summon up to come up with suggestion like that especially as for the
last year that is exactly what I have been doing in addition to my job
search for IT work, but only getting replies back from employers
saying "sorry but you are too senior for this position" or "you could
do the job but I require some one you has worked in this particular
business before".

My next Two New Deal interviews were with my 2nd ND advisor which went
fine but then after a while she started on ringing me up at home to
change the appointment dates for my next ND interview, this happend on
2 - 3 occasions. Then finally when I arrived at my local job centre I
was told that my 2nd ND advisor was off sick due to "work place
stress" and I will being have my ND interviews for the time being back
with my 1st original ND advisor.
Then the ND hell really started to kick in when my first ND advisor
started going on about the "Programme" scheme I said to her that I
have heard of this scheme but it was not much good to me because I
have all my job search facilities at home e.g. Two home built
computers, Internet connection and E-mail account etc, and that has I
live quite far away from were my programme centre is situated it would
be pointless for me to travel all that way for Job search work which I
can do from home. But the ND adviser was having nothing of it and
started to say that if I do not want to go on the Programe centre then
she would see this as "not using the facilities of the job centre".
But she would bring this matter up with me at the end of new deal
course.

Anyway on my 6th ND interview at the job centre the 1st ND advisor
that I had been seeing who was covering for my 2nd ND advisor decided
not to turn up for work as well and I was told that she too was off
due to "work place stress", so I saw my 3rd ND personal advisor for my
interview.

It was about 8 weeks before the 2nd ND advisor decided to come back to
work at the Job Centre only to tell me at my first interview with her
following her return that she is comming off New Deal altogether and
that I will be seeing another ND advisor (my 4th) who has just started
working at the job centre, and that I will being seeing the gentleman
next week.

At this stage in my New Deal experience I was about to enter the
second part of the New Deal scheme the "Intensive Activity period", I
decided to opt for the Work placement option and was booked in for a
Interivew with the training agency that is on contract with the job
centre for the 2nd part of the ND scheme, at the interview I was told
that he had no employers on his books that could give suitable
employment for me for Three months and actually he was quite frank
about his views of the New Deal scheme in that he said that the only
employers who approached him about ND work placements where the sort
of people that just wanted to take unemployed people on for 3 months
pick up the little £60 a week grant from the government and then once
the 3 months were up ditch the New Dealer and get another New Deal
person for the job for the next 3 months and so on.

In the end I have elected to go for the Training option and do the
European Computer Driving Licence.

Here is the roll call of all the ND advisors:-

1st ND Advisor :- Fiona
2nd ND Advisor :- Steph
3rd ND Advisor:- Leslie.
4th ND Advisor:- Steve.

Stop Press!!!, I have just hear that Steve might be sharing his
caseload with another ND advisor Adrian so,

5th (poss) ND Advisor:- Adrian.

NEW DEAL:- THE DEAL IS YOU ARE ALONE.
 
Z

Zoe Brown

Before I could manage to park my backside in the chair the ND
advisor said that "I notice that you main skills are in the I.T
industry, well I no nothing about Information Technology whatsoever"
What do you do within the IT industry ?
 
B

Bill

Andy said:
I have been on New Deal 25+ now since about the last week of this past
June and I can tell you that so far my experience of New Deal is one
of a total farce!!!!!.

At the beginning when I was notified that I was going on to New Deal
as I had been out of work for 16 months now that the new deal (so
called personal) advisor I will be seing for my first Interview will
be leaving and then I will be seeing a new advisor who is Steph.
Anyway for my 1st ND interview I turned up at the job centre 15
minutes before the appointment time of 11:00 am only to be kept on
being told by the new deal advisor every 10 minutes that she would see
me in a minute as she was too buisy at the moment (doing nothing in my
opinion), this exercise went on for about 20 minutes into the allotted
interview time before I could actually see her.
Before I could manage to park my backside in the chair the ND
advisor said that "I notice that you main skills are in the I.T
industry, well I no nothing about Information Technology whatsoever" I
thought to myself well you are going to be a fat lot of good in
assisting me aren't you.
The only advice she could you give me that came out of the Interview
was that I should start applying for general office administration
jobs, I thought to myself how much brain power the ND adviser had to
summon up to come up with suggestion like that especially as for the
last year that is exactly what I have been doing in addition to my job
search for IT work, but only getting replies back from employers
saying "sorry but you are too senior for this position" or "you could
do the job but I require some one you has worked in this particular
business before".

My next Two New Deal interviews were with my 2nd ND advisor which went
fine but then after a while she started on ringing me up at home to
change the appointment dates for my next ND interview, this happend on
2 - 3 occasions. Then finally when I arrived at my local job centre I
was told that my 2nd ND advisor was off sick due to "work place
stress" and I will being have my ND interviews for the time being back
with my 1st original ND advisor.
Then the ND hell really started to kick in when my first ND advisor
started going on about the "Programme" scheme I said to her that I
have heard of this scheme but it was not much good to me because I
have all my job search facilities at home e.g. Two home built
computers, Internet connection and E-mail account etc, and that has I
live quite far away from were my programme centre is situated it would
be pointless for me to travel all that way for Job search work which I
can do from home. But the ND adviser was having nothing of it and
started to say that if I do not want to go on the Programe centre then
she would see this as "not using the facilities of the job centre".
But she would bring this matter up with me at the end of new deal
course.

Anyway on my 6th ND interview at the job centre the 1st ND advisor
that I had been seeing who was covering for my 2nd ND advisor decided
not to turn up for work as well and I was told that she too was off
due to "work place stress", so I saw my 3rd ND personal advisor for my
interview.

It was about 8 weeks before the 2nd ND advisor decided to come back to
work at the Job Centre only to tell me at my first interview with her
following her return that she is comming off New Deal altogether and
that I will be seeing another ND advisor (my 4th) who has just started
working at the job centre, and that I will being seeing the gentleman
next week.

At this stage in my New Deal experience I was about to enter the
second part of the New Deal scheme the "Intensive Activity period", I
decided to opt for the Work placement option and was booked in for a
Interivew with the training agency that is on contract with the job
centre for the 2nd part of the ND scheme, at the interview I was told
that he had no employers on his books that could give suitable
employment for me for Three months and actually he was quite frank
about his views of the New Deal scheme in that he said that the only
employers who approached him about ND work placements where the sort
of people that just wanted to take unemployed people on for 3 months
pick up the little £60 a week grant from the government and then once
the 3 months were up ditch the New Dealer and get another New Deal
person for the job for the next 3 months and so on.

In the end I have elected to go for the Training option and do the
European Computer Driving Licence.

Here is the roll call of all the ND advisors:-

1st ND Advisor :- Fiona
2nd ND Advisor :- Steph
3rd ND Advisor:- Leslie.
4th ND Advisor:- Steve.

Stop Press!!!, I have just hear that Steve might be sharing his
caseload with another ND advisor Adrian so,

5th (poss) ND Advisor:- Adrian.

NEW DEAL:- THE DEAL IS YOU ARE ALONE.
How do you think they should run this then?

Bill
 
C

Cosmic Horizon

Pat said:
<SNIP>

Just for you here is the New Deal Legislation (Red Tape) to you.

The following link explains in graphic detail the following options that you may have
to consider concerning New Deal, as you approach the (Gateway Period).

Good Luck !

http://www.cesi.org.uk/_newsite2002/publications/handbook/newdeal/nd2000/htm
l/chap04.htm

:)

Patrik
Hello. This 3 months work training I'm being compelled to go on is *not*
"new deal". Apparently it is exactly like "new deal", or at least exactly
like the the "intensive work activity" period of "new deal", except rather
than get £15 extra a week, I only get £10 extra a week! :[email protected]

So I thought that was a bit funny and wondered whether' given that it is
*not* "new deal", whether I am obliged to do this training if I can show
that I have been doing sufficient amount of job hunting?

Now the lady at the job centre put me on this training course when I
expressed an interest in accounting. Anyway, I went for an interview with
the training provider on friday. They try to place you with an employer for
4 days a week with the other day spending the time with them. But the lady
at the training centre said there is no way I could do accounting since I
have no knowledge of it, and it would take *3 years* rather than 13 weeks!
LOL. Worse still I am speding 7 hours a week studying for a Masters in
Computing, and she said I would need to give it up! :-O

So basically I haven't yet signed up for this training course and I phoned
up the job centre to express my reservations, especially regarding the fact
I would need to give up my MSc.

So God knows what's going to happen now :-(

Why am I being compelled to do this if I'm not in new deal? And if I am
being compelled to do this, surely I have the right to be put on new deal ?
If I have to give up my MSc I'd at least like the extra £5 a week! :[email protected]
 
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M

martin

I feel your pain. I was made to go to the prgramme centre at my local
JC in January. What a joke! The advisor was a large, beligerent and
aggresive old mare whose only joy in life was to boast her alleged
success and threaten me. I also had all the facilities the could offer
at home - and then some. She even tried to get me to rewrite my CV -
printed at home - in 'her' style so as to make it bland and
unappealing which mine isnt (in compensation for a lack of experience
i have in comparison to potential competitors).

The JC is stupid, ignorant and qoefully useless. Since September I
have been unable to eveen look for work in my local since their
machines dont ever work!
 
K

ken

What's the big deal in trying to get you working. There is no such thing as
a free lunch. The welfare state is there to stop people getting into the
poverty trap. I will have a guess that you have a car, washing machine,
holidays, probably smoke and go to the pub. That's not poor. People in third
world countries are poor. This is why the Asylum seekers are taking a big
foothold, they are willing to do the work that the Brits. won't.

ken
 
C

Cosmic Horizon

ken said:
What's the big deal in trying to get you working. There is no such thing as
a free lunch. The welfare state is there to stop people getting into the
poverty trap. I will have a guess that you have a car, washing machine,
holidays, probably smoke and go to the pub. That's not poor. People in third
world countries are poor. This is why the Asylum seekers are taking a big
foothold, they are willing to do the work that the Brits. won't.

ken
Hi Ken,

There's no big deal in trying to get us to work. But it has to be done in a
sensible manner. Being confronted by belligerent people at the job centre
boasting about how superior they are to you doesn't achieve anything. Nor
does threatening people achieve anything. If one is obliged by the rules to
go on some "work training", then so be it. Taking some malicious perverse
pleasure informing the jobseeker they must go on "work training" is quite
another matter.

And the value of the "work training" has to be questioned. When I went on
"new deal" there were 3 or 4 of us, including myself ,who never went on any
work training but simply spent 13 weeks reading newspapers and talking with
each other. Even those who did go on work training weren't being trained so
far as I was able to tell. It was my belief they were simply being used for
cheap labour.

And I have no idea why you are introducing the question of how well off the
poor are. The labelling of one as being poor or not is usually a relative
rather than an absolute one. I would also say that if you imagine that the
unemployed can afford the luxuries you mention, then you cannot ever have
been unemployed. Not that anyone has complained about being poor. People
are simple questioning the wisdom of compulsory worthless "work training".
Such "work training" benefits neither the jobseeker or taxpayer. Indeed
the only people who seem to benefit are those employers exploiting the gift
of free labour and relieving them of the need to offer people genuine jobs.
 
M

martin

What's the big deal in trying to get you working. There is no such thing as
a free lunch.
What does that actually mean? Why do people always trot out the same
tired sayings, its so trite.

The JC DONT try to get you working. TO them its just another day at
the office. THey aren't remotely interested in helping because if they
were 'personal advisors' woudl spend time (for which they are
compensated, unlike jobseekers) actually looking for decent, well
paid, inspiring jobs and not just foisting any old crap on people when
thats all they get on their books.

Again we have the poverty mentality coming through. THe bitter mass of
employed 'taxpayers' who hate their jobs and take their bitterness out
on those who are unemployed. These people are stupid and ignorant,
since the unemployed pay into the system the same as they do.
The welfare state is there to stop people getting into the
poverty trap.
Rubbish. £50 a week is nothing but a poverty trap.
I will have a guess that you have a car, washing machine,
holidays, probably smoke and go to the pub.
YOu can guess all you like until you live with me you can base your
opinions and arguments on facts and keep your guessing to yourself. I
don't entertain ignorance.
That's not poor. People in third
world countries are poor.
A meaningless comparison.
This is why the Asylum seekers are taking a big
foothold, they are willing to do the work that the Brits. won't.
Thats exploitation. People dont want to lick toilets in McD's for good
reason.
 
M

martin

And the value of the "work training" has to be questioned. When I went on
"new deal" there were 3 or 4 of us, including myself ,who never went on any
work training but simply spent 13 weeks reading newspapers and talking with
each other. Even those who did go on work training weren't being trained so
far as I was able to tell. It was my belief they were simply being used for
cheap labour.
When I was presented with the opportunity to go on some work training
with my JC, the company themselves didn't have any willing employers
and - not surprisingly - laughed at my suggestion that I get paid for
my time instead of just receiving benefit. I thought that was
pathetic. If I do a day's work then the employer can damn well pay me,
training or not. A fair days pay for a fair days work NOT state
exploitation thank you.
 
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P

Pat Winstanley

When I was presented with the opportunity to go on some work training
with my JC, the company themselves didn't have any willing employers
and - not surprisingly - laughed at my suggestion that I get paid for
my time instead of just receiving benefit. I thought that was
pathetic. If I do a day's work then the employer can damn well pay me,
training or not. A fair days pay for a fair days work NOT state
exploitation thank you.
But what is fair pay for the day's work?

What *net* value did you provide to the employer?
 
P

Paul Bolton

This is why the Asylum seekers are taking a big
Thats exploitation. People dont want to lick toilets in McD's for good
reason.
It could be argued that, in widening the eligibility for Working Tax Credit
to almost everyone over the age of 25 and working at least 30 hours a week,
the government is acknowledging that the minimum wage itself is not enough
to live on.
 
M

martin

But what is fair pay for the day's work?This is just an issue of common sense. If the JC arrange for me to
work experience with Smiths or something, then Smiths should pay me
the going rate for the jobs I will be doing, say for example working
on the shop floor. If I'm serving people and taking payments the same
as everyone else then I should be paid for that work regarldess of
whether I'm there as a trainee, learner or whatever; the work is being
done by someone who deserves to be paid the same as anyone and
everyone. Anything else is jsut exploitation.
 
M

martin

Paul Bolton said:
It could be argued that, in widening the eligibility for Working Tax Credit
to almost everyone over the age of 25 and working at least 30 hours a week,
the government is acknowledging that the minimum wage itself is not enough
to live on.

Well it isnt rocket science. The average wage offered to the
unemployed is a slap in the face. Its farcical to expect people to lap
up these jobs because it is little more than slavery. Society hasnt
really chantged since the days of children up chimneys as far as i can
see.
 
P

Pat Winstanley

This is just an issue of common sense. If the JC arrange for me to
work experience with Smiths or something, then Smiths should pay me
the going rate for the jobs I will be doing, say for example working
on the shop floor. If I'm serving people and taking payments the same
as everyone else then I should be paid for that work regarldess of
whether I'm there as a trainee, learner or whatever; the work is being
done by someone who deserves to be paid the same as anyone and
everyone. Anything else is jsut exploitation.
Depends on how much it is costing the company for you to be there.
 
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D

Donald McCaskey

martin said:
This is just an issue of common sense. If the JC arrange for me to
work experience with Smiths or something, then Smiths should pay me
the going rate for the jobs I will be doing, say for example working
on the shop floor. If I'm serving people and taking payments the same
as everyone else then I should be paid for that work regarldess of
whether I'm there as a trainee, learner or whatever; the work is being
done by someone who deserves to be paid the same as anyone and
everyone. Anything else is jsut exploitation.
It's more a case of your value as an employee. If you are providing the
same value to the company as your colleagues then, yes, you should be paid
the same as those colleagues. That's what the Equal Pay act is about.

However, and here's the rub, if, as a trainee, you provide less value to the
company, because you can't perform all the duties or, for example, you can't
serve as many customers in an hour as your colleague who's worked the tills
for donkey's years, then the company is quite right to consider paying you
less.

Don
 

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