Fraudulent orders from Dubai, how does this work?


U

uk

In my business we are getting huge enquiries for our products. The mix
and the quantities make it pretty obvious it's not a real requirement,
but I am curious how this is going to work for them.

I know the standard Nigerian fraud, where payment is made with a bogus
credit card or a cheque. Usually this involves an "accidental"
overpayment, which the vendor then refunds, then the original payment
fails (cheque is returned, etc) and the fraudster keeps the amount of
the refund. Whether any actual goods were shipped as well doesn't
really matter. We get these every day.

But we are now getting enquiries where they are offering to pay by a
bank transfer.

Surely a bank transfer is cleared funds when you get it, and cannot be
reclaimed. Or can it??? How can we safeguard against a bank transfer
being reclaimed?

Or is this just a ploy to obtain bank details and signatures?
 
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S

Sharky

In my business we are getting huge enquiries for our products. The mix
and the quantities make it pretty obvious it's not a real requirement,
but I am curious how this is going to work for them.

I know the standard Nigerian fraud, where payment is made with a bogus
credit card or a cheque. Usually this involves an "accidental"
overpayment, which the vendor then refunds, then the original payment
fails (cheque is returned, etc) and the fraudster keeps the amount of
the refund. Whether any actual goods were shipped as well doesn't
really matter. We get these every day.

But we are now getting enquiries where they are offering to pay by a
bank transfer.

Surely a bank transfer is cleared funds when you get it, and cannot be
reclaimed. Or can it??? How can we safeguard against a bank transfer
being reclaimed?

Or is this just a ploy to obtain bank details and signatures?
When they say 'bank transfer', they probably mean they have hacked into
a paypal acount and intend to pay you with funds/credit cards belonging
to the account.
Not sure whether they can be grabbed back.
 
J

Jonathan Bryce

Surely a bank transfer is cleared funds when you get it, and cannot be
reclaimed. Or can it??? How can we safeguard against a bank transfer
being reclaimed?
If the bank transfer is from a phished account and made without the owner's
permission, then it can and will be reversed.

Ultimately, no form of payment is 100% guaranteed.
 
P

Poldie

Sharky said:
When they say 'bank transfer', they probably mean they have hacked into
a paypal acount and intend to pay you with funds/credit cards belonging
to the account.
Not sure whether they can be grabbed back.
In PayPal language I think it's called a Chargeback. Here's a page
which explains some of it, I think largely from the point of view of an
eBay transaction:

https://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=xpt/seller/ChargebackRisk-outside

(I don't think you've ever actually got the money from any online
transaction system until you're holding the notes in your grubby little
hands!)
 
T

Tim

Jonathan Bryce said:
If the bank transfer is from a phished
account and made without the owner's
permission, then it can and will be reversed.
Of course the transaction will be
reversed in the phished account.

But will it ( / can it, even) be reversed in the receiving a/c?
Might the bank end up taking the loss rather
than the other "victim" (receiver of transaction)?
 
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U

uk

Tim said:
Of course the transaction will be
reversed in the phished account.

But will it ( / can it, even) be reversed in the receiving a/c?
Might the bank end up taking the loss rather
than the other "victim" (receiver of transaction)?
Good question.

I have just phoned up my bank (Bank of Scotland) and this is what they
say:

In the case of an incoming electronic transfer:

The money is received as cleared funds. However a mistake/fraud at the
sending end can result in the money coming out again, in the first 1-2
days.

After that, they need the account holder's (my) permission, no matter
what the reason, and he can refuse. (I am not sure if this is really
true; for example see the numerous court cases where somebody got a
mystery credit into their account; the only time where they could keep
the funds is where they spent them without realising)

In the case of an incoming cheque:

They can be uncleared for a number of days (UK cheques) or several
months (foreign cheques regardless of currency)

I asked what happens if when I am making an electronic payment to
somebody, as is very common these days, and I mistype the account
number. They told me I lose the money, unless the recipient agrees to
return it.

Suprising answers?

I do know of one case, somewhat related, where we asked BOS to make a
bank transfer to a supplier in China. They lost the mailed
instruction, so we faxed it. Later they did both so we paid twice. Our
supplier never refunded the money to BOS, but they reimbursed us. They
then hassled us for about a year to get our supplier to authorise
their bank to return the money, but eventually forgot about it. As a
result of this we never fax them; we always just mail them.

Paypal is something else. There is a lot of stuff on the web about
them allowing chargebacks after weeks or months, with no appeal. I
would have hoped that this has been stopped by the UK FSA.
 
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J

John Redman

Jonathan Bryce said:
If the bank transfer is from a phished account and made without the
owner's
permission, then it can and will be reversed.

Ultimately, no form of payment is 100% guaranteed.
Except Western Union Money Transfer, which is why Nigerian fraudsters like
it so much.
 

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