Inheritance

[firemonkey]

Yes, I wonder why they keep putting off the "roll out". The idea of the
ESA regime was to save money, I think it is costing far more to run due
to the amount off appeals they are getting.






I can only guess but I don't think it will be relaced, the government
are real thickos when it comes to saving tax payers money, they may
widen the scope of the medical assessment not fail people who are
clearly ill and bound to win at tribunal.

http://wheresthebenefit.blogspot.com/2011/01/atos-making-millions-from-our.html

http://www.leftfootforward.org/2011/01/incapacity-benefit-consensus-must-stop/


The DWP admitted that those assessing whether or not someone is
deserving of incapacity benefit do not need to be trained doctors.

The FOI says “unlike the more widely known type of examination
undertaken by a customer’s GP, the assessment is not concerned with
diagnosis or decisions about treatment and therefore specialist
diagnostic qualifications are unnecessary.”


http://cynicaljournalist.wordpress....-benefit-checks-to-cost-100m-a-year/#more-797

 

[Niteawk]

ESA is being abolished in 2015 along with JSA, IS and HB and is being
replaced by Universal Credit.

What a dreadful name for a benefit. Universal Credit

Couldn't agree more, sounds ominous to me.


- making work pay.

Coming soon to a Jobcentre near you...

I suppose we can't really sustain people being better off or just as well
off not working. If the "making work pay" scheme is anything like the
current "better off in work calc" and tax credit nonsense, it won't make any
difference. The reality is they are going to have to raise wages to a level
where it really is profitable to work. Like it used to be in my fathers day,
he did not have to rely on half baked benefit schemes to see if he was
better off working, if he did he probably would have ended up on the dole.

 

[Niteawk]

http://wheresthebenefit.blogspot.com/2011/01/atos-making-millions-from-our.html

http://www.leftfootforward.org/2011/01/incapacity-benefit-consensus-must-stop/


The DWP admitted that those assessing whether or not someone is deserving
of incapacity benefit do not need to be trained doctors.

I know, the person that assessed me was a nurse who could hardly speak
English, and she was able to rule against qualified NHS doctors. Whatever
happened to medical qualifications? I suppose if I want a second opinion, I
must see a council road sweeper.

 

[mart2306]

Couldn't agree more, sounds ominous to me.

 - making work pay.


I suppose we can't really sustain people being better off or just as well
off not working. If the "making work pay" scheme is anything like the
current "better off in work calc" and tax credit nonsense, it won't make any
difference. The reality is they are going to have to raise wages to a level
where it really is profitable to work. Like it used to be in my fathers day,
he did not have to rely on half baked benefit schemes to see if he was
better off working, if he did he probably would have ended up on the dole..

Yes, they can raise wages. Which then raises prices, or cuts staff
while not cutting the work needing doing.
Your father will probably remember a time when pay rises were double
digits. As was inflation. He probably also had lower 'dole' payments
overall than we have in proportion to costs.

Martin <><

 

[Niteawk]

Couldn't agree more, sounds ominous to me.

- making work pay.


I suppose we can't really sustain people being better off or just as well
off not working. If the "making work pay" scheme is anything like the
current "better off in work calc" and tax credit nonsense, it won't make
any
difference. The reality is they are going to have to raise wages to a
level
where it really is profitable to work. Like it used to be in my fathers
day,
he did not have to rely on half baked benefit schemes to see if he was
better off working, if he did he probably would have ended up on the dole.

Yes, they can raise wages. Which then raises prices, or cuts staff
while not cutting the work needing doing.
Your father will probably remember a time when pay rises were double
digits. As was inflation. He probably also had lower 'dole' payments
overall than we have in proportion to costs.

Martin <><

_________________________________________
Prices have always gone up while wage rises have been kept well below the
rate of inflation for many years now. Thats why we have this insane
situation with people on benefits being just as well off not working. You
are going to see some of the most incredible price hikes ever recorded this
year, the pay back for bankers and government fraud starts now.

 

[mart2306]

Yes, they can raise wages. Which then raises prices, or cuts staff
while not cutting the work needing doing.
Your father will probably remember a time when pay rises were double
digits. As was inflation. He probably also had lower 'dole' payments
overall than we have in proportion to costs.

Martin  <><

_________________________________________
Prices have always gone up while wage rises have been kept well below the
rate of inflation for many years now. Thats why we have this insane
situation with people on benefits being just as well off not working. You
are going to see some of the most incredible price hikes ever recorded this
year, the pay back for bankers and government fraud starts now.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Your pay rises may have been well below the rate of inflation for many
years but that doesn't mean all companies and organisations have
operated that way.
Councils, Royal Mail, even some airlines have had inflation-busting
pay rises reported in the local or national press at times in recent
years.
People generally don't like inflation, it causes them to ask for more
as a pay rise.
Whether they get more is itself a different matter....

Martin <><

 

[mike]

ESA is being abolished in 2015 along with JSA, IS and HB and is being
replaced by Universal Credit.

What a dreadful name for a benefit. Universal Credit - making work pay.
Coming soon to a Jobcentre near you...

UC - Universal Cockup.

I'll wager it'll be complex and time consuming to administer than the
benefits it replaces and somehow that'll be the staff that actually have
to administer it's fault. Not the ministers and their highly paid
advisors who come up with the policy lead.

Mike

 

[mike]

http://wheresthebenefit.blogspot.com/2011/01/atos-making-millions-from-our.html


http://www.leftfootforward.org/2011/01/incapacity-benefit-consensus-must-stop/



The DWP admitted that those assessing whether or not someone is
deserving of incapacity benefit do not need to be trained doctors.

The FOI says “unlike the more widely known type of examination
undertaken by a customer’s GP, the assessment is not concerned with
diagnosis or decisions about treatment and therefore specialist
diagnostic qualifications are unnecessary.”


http://cynicaljournalist.wordpress....-benefit-checks-to-cost-100m-a-year/#more-797

Whilst I'm not defending ATOS service in itself, medical qualifications
are about diagnosing and treating illness etc, ATOS are not there to do
either.

They ask questions about what the individual is capable of, surely more
relevant to whether you can work than the name or treatment for the
condition.

Mike

 

[Niteawk]

Whilst I'm not defending ATOS service in itself, medical qualifications
are about diagnosing and treating illness etc, ATOS are not there to do
either.

They ask questions about what the individual is capable of, surely more
relevant to whether you can work than the name or treatment for the
condition.

You are overlooking one critical factor, to qualify for ESA you must be
signed off by a GP or surgeon etc as "not fit for work". The Atos medical
assessment is not workable or practical in any sense unless it ignores that
fact.

The DWP is breaking the law IMO, and any hope of taking them to court is
futile, they simply award ESA before it gets that far. The idea is to make
it as difficult as possible to put people off claiming, and it works because
most people do not have the determination or energy to challenge them, and
many more would not know where to start, and quite a few will not have much
time left to live anyway so that takes care of that.

 

[mike]

You are overlooking one critical factor, to qualify for ESA you must be
signed off by a GP or surgeon etc as "not fit for work". The Atos
medical assessment is not workable or practical in any sense unless it
ignores that fact.

And what makes a doctor capable of assessing that fact? What training
do they have to assess your capabilities with regard to work?

If you go to your GP they ask questions and the examination is
superficial, does this hurt, does that hurt, how do you feel .... All
too often doctors consider your capabilities in terms of your normal
job. Just because your joints are too f***** to work on building site
does not make you incapable of work. Your bad back means you can't work
in a warehouse, well there are millions of sedentary jobs.

I have been offered med certs 3 times by three doctors over the last
eight years or so, and not one of those occasions would I say I was
unfit for work. I am no die hard come hell or high water I will work
type, on each occasion I worked on with a little discomfort, painkillers
& anti inflamatory drugs.

The DWP is breaking the law IMO, and any hope of taking them to court is
futile, they simply award ESA before it gets that far. The idea is to
make it as difficult as possible to put people off claiming, and it
works because most people do not have the determination or energy to
challenge them, and many more would not know where to start, and quite a
few will not have much time left to live anyway so that takes care of that.

If the DWP has been breaking the law it has been doing so for 20+ years.
Bearing in mind there are many people/groups able and willing to
challenge the DWP I'm sure it has been tried and tested in a court of
law and therefore it is lawful, your opinion has no bearing on the
matter; nor mine.

I'm sure the gov wants to put people off claiming, it's human nature for
many people to take the easiest route, if you allow some people to sit
at home and watch daytime TV collecting easy money they will. The gov
has a duty to protect the taxpayer from such people so checks have to be
put in place.

The benefits system allows people to live in the same comfort or greater
comfort than many working people, how can that be right?

Why work if you can have the same 50" widescreen TV, games console etc
and have more time to enjoy them by not working?

Mike

 

[mart2306]

UC - Universal Cockup.

I'll wager it'll be complex and time consuming to administer than the
benefits it replaces and somehow that'll be the staff that actually have
to administer it's fault.  Not the ministers and their highly paid
advisors who come up with the policy lead.

Mike- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

And you aren't making that up. Happens every time government introduce
new benefits or replaces benefits.
Savings made in linking benefits into one huge system will be offset
by the complexity, training costs, computer costs and general
problems. And not forgetting bringing it in at a politically
convenient date, not a date when the computer system is ready or staff
are fully trained......
About the only good thing is that it will at least temporarily
increase recruitment in the civil service. Casual job anyone?

Martin <><

 

[Robbie]

UC - Universal Cockup.

Universal cockup indeed. It's also basically the old Supplementary
Benefit under another name.

I'll wager it'll be complex and time consuming to administer than the
benefits it replaces and somehow that'll be the staff that actually have
to administer it's fault. Not the ministers and their highly paid
advisors who come up with the policy lead.

It's Ian Duncan Smith's brain child. You just know it won't work.

 

[Niteawk]

And what makes a doctor capable of assessing that fact? What training do
they have to assess your capabilities with regard to work?

If you go to your GP they ask questions and the examination is
superficial, does this hurt, does that hurt, how do you feel .... All too
often doctors consider your capabilities in terms of your normal job.

You are trying to make it sound like anyone can get signed off by simply
asking, that might work for a couple of weeks. Doctors have nothing to do
with how the DWP and Atos operates, they went to real medical schools to get
real qualifications and in the real world a doctor follows up by sending
patients to hospital for X rays, blood tests etc. The results of those tests
will confirm if a patient is genuine or not.



Just because your joints are too f***** to work on building site

does not make you incapable of work. Your bad back means you can't work
in a warehouse, well there are millions of sedentary jobs.

Thats fine, and is often the case with ESA claimants who are no longer
capable of heavy lifting and running around, therefore under the rules they
qualify fo ESA. But your Atos medical will ignore the fact they have bad
joints, and cant get around like they used to. That is not how a system that
was designed to assess people operates if it is genuine, that is a system
designed to deliberately fail people no matter what happens. The JC will
also ignore that fact and order them to apply for non sedentary jobs, if not
they will stop JSA.

I have been offered med certs 3 times by three doctors over the last eight
years or so, and not one of those occasions would I say I was unfit for
work. I am no die hard come hell or high water I will work type, on each
occasion I worked on with a little discomfort, painkillers & anti
inflamatory drugs.


If the DWP has been breaking the law it has been doing so for 20+ years.

ESA has only been in place since 2008

Bearing in mind there are many people/groups able and willing to
challenge the DWP I'm sure it has been tried and tested in a court of law
and therefore it is lawful, your opinion has no bearing on the matter; nor
mine.

Its a relatively new system, impossible to get to court that quick.

I'm sure the gov wants to put people off claiming, it's human nature for
many people to take the easiest route, if you allow some people to sit at
home and watch daytime TV collecting easy money they will. The gov has a
duty to protect the taxpayer from such people so checks have to be put in
place.

You know as well as I do that is a joke, any scheme the government
introduces will cost more in admin than it can possibly save, if they
seriously cared about protecting taxpayer money, they would reduce
bureaucracy. I agree some checks have to be made, but breaking the rules to
make an unworkable system work is going to far.

The benefits system allows people to live in the same comfort or greater
comfort than many working people, how can that be right?

How can it be right that basic wages no longer cover the cost of living, the
whole system is fcked, blaming the unemployed and sick for that is not going
to solve the problem. Nobody seems to want to point the finger at where the
blame really lies for this, the fact is we have a bunch of greedy bastards
running the country, but the media won't tell you that because its true.

Why work if you can have the same 50" widescreen TV, games console etc and
have more time to enjoy them by not working?

Games consols, TV! what age group are you talking about here? Kids living at
home by the sound of it. Don't believe the hype.

 

[mike]

You are trying to make it sound like anyone can get signed off by simply
asking, that might work for a couple of weeks. Doctors have nothing to
do with how the DWP and Atos operates, they went to real medical schools
to get real qualifications and in the real world a doctor follows up by
sending patients to hospital for X rays, blood tests etc. The results of
those tests will confirm if a patient is genuine or not.



Just because your joints are too f***** to work on building site

Thats fine, and is often the case with ESA claimants who are no longer
capable of heavy lifting and running around, therefore under the rules
they qualify fo ESA. But your Atos medical will ignore the fact they
have bad joints, and cant get around like they used to. That is not how
a system that was designed to assess people operates if it is genuine,
that is a system designed to deliberately fail people no matter what
happens. The JC will also ignore that fact and order them to apply for
non sedentary jobs, if not they will stop JSA.




ESA has only been in place since 2008

The DWP DM has been overuling GPs med certs for over 20yrs, first with
Invalidity Benefit and then Incapacity Benefit.

Its a relatively new system, impossible to get to court that quick.

See above the principals have been used for decades.

You know as well as I do that is a joke, any scheme the government
introduces will cost more in admin than it can possibly save, if they
seriously cared about protecting taxpayer money, they would reduce
bureaucracy. I agree some checks have to be made, but breaking the rules
to make an unworkable system work is going to far.

Sure admin costs are high, the govenrment invents crazy systems which
require it! But the admin costs vs benefits paid and customers is
actually very low. My office I thinks it's 1 member of staff to nearly
3000 customers.

How can it be right that basic wages no longer cover the cost of living,
the whole system is fcked, blaming the unemployed and sick for that is
not going to solve the problem. Nobody seems to want to point the finger
at where the blame really lies for this, the fact is we have a bunch of
greedy bastards running the country, but the media won't tell you that
because its true.
Agreed.


Games consols, TV! what age group are you talking about here? Kids
living at home by the sound of it. Don't believe the hype.

I've seen far more of the benefits system and it's customers than you
ever will. I have visited customers in their own home since the 80's
and many lifelong customers do very nicely. The first big back
projection TV I ever saw was in a customers hse, the whole family was on
DLA etc. I saw lots satellite TV visiting customers long before I got
it at home.

Sure some hses are plainly poverty stricken, generally people who aren't
playing the system very well or have no clue about managing their money!
The daily mail's horror stories are not as isolated as some would have
you believe.

Mike

 

[mart2306]

You are trying to make it sound like anyone can get signed off by simply
asking, that might work for a couple of weeks. Doctors have nothing to do
with how the DWP and Atos operates, they went to real medical schools to get
real qualifications and in the real world a doctor follows up by sending
patients to hospital for X rays, blood tests etc. The results of those tests
will confirm if a patient is genuine or not.

Just because your joints are too f***** to work on building site


Thats fine, and is often the case with ESA claimants who are no longer
capable of heavy lifting and running around, therefore under the rules they
qualify fo ESA. But your Atos medical will ignore the fact they have bad
joints, and cant get around like they used to. That is not how a system that
was designed to assess people operates if it is genuine, that is a system
designed to deliberately fail people no matter what happens. The JC will
also ignore that fact and order them to apply for non sedentary jobs, if not
they will stop JSA.









ESA has only been in place since 2008


Its a relatively new system, impossible to get to court that quick.




You know as well as I do that is a joke, any scheme the government
introduces will cost more in admin than it can possibly save, if they
seriously cared about protecting taxpayer money, they would reduce
bureaucracy. I agree some checks have to be made, but breaking the rules to
make an unworkable system work is going to far.




How can it be right that basic wages no longer cover the cost of living, the
whole system is fcked, blaming the unemployed and sick for that is not going
to solve the problem. Nobody seems to want to point the finger at where the
blame really lies for this, the fact is we have a bunch of greedy bastards
running the country, but the media won't tell you that because its true.


Games consols, TV! what age group are you talking about here? Kids livingat
home by the sound of it. Don't believe the hype.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

And yet, despite your claims that basic wages don't cover the cost of
living, millions do get the basic wage or less and live. Millions get
minimum wage. Millions more work part time so bring home less than a
full time wage equivilant a minimum wage earner would get.
Can always massively increase minimum wage - meaning pricing ourselves
out of exports and raising costs to buy things (thereby reducing your
spending power with your increased income). Or cutting staff numbers
to keep wages bill down while requiring staff to between them complete
the same amount of work.
Which do you prefer? Higher costs with less jobs overall? Or simply
just less jobs and more work to do per person?

Martin <><

 

[Niteawk]

The DWP DM has been overuling GPs med certs for over 20yrs, first with
Invalidity Benefit and then Incapacity Benefit.

The point is the old PCA regime was generally accepted as reasonable and
fair. The newer ESA regime is not so acceptable and is attracting endless
criticism.

See above the principals have been used for decades.

The principal will always be the same, changing the medical assessment to
make it almost impossible to qualify is where the problem lies, the ESA
regime would not survive in its present form due to the amount of complaints
and appeals it currently generates.

..

I've seen far more of the benefits system and it's customers than you ever
will. I have visited customers in their own home since the 80's and many
lifelong customers do very nicely.

You must visit some really posh areas on your round. FYI I worked in the
public sector for 10 years and saw far more people at their homes than any
benefit officer. People on council estates had nothing of any value, if they
had it was soon nicked by the skag heads who needed to feed their drugs
habit. You simply could not keep anything of value living on an inner city
council estate, it could actually endanger your life if the local druggies
thought you had a few quid tucked away.

And the people I saw with the type of equipment you speak of lived in
sheltered and warden controlled housing and practically house bound so you
would expect them to have some form of entertainment in the home, but thats
all they had.

 

[mart2306]

The point is the old PCA regime was generally accepted as reasonable and
fair. The newer ESA regime is not so acceptable and is attracting endless
criticism.



The principal will always be the same, changing the medical assessment to
make it almost impossible to qualify is where the problem lies, the ESA
regime would not survive in its present form due to the amount of complaints
and appeals it currently generates.

.




You must visit some really posh areas on your round. FYI I worked in the
public sector for 10 years and saw far more people at their homes than any
benefit officer. People on council estates had nothing of any value, if they
had it was soon nicked by the skag heads who needed to feed their drugs
habit. You simply could not keep anything of value living on an inner city
council estate, it could actually endanger your life if the local druggies
thought you had a few quid tucked away.

And the people I saw with the type of equipment you speak of lived in
sheltered and warden controlled housing and practically house bound so you
would expect them to have some form of entertainment in the home, but thats
all they had.

Suprised you see the PCA scheme as reasonable and fair. The same staff
at ATOS did the assessments in person - those staff you constantly
complain about, those staff you say aren't qualified. The same staff.
If they are capable of doing one type of assessment, why not another?

Changing the medical assessment presumes that the previous one was not
fit for purpose. Maybe it was - but Labour decided to change it.
Sounds like you visited some very tough council estates - down south
were they?

Martin <><

 

[Niteawk]

The point is the old PCA regime was generally accepted as reasonable and
fair. The newer ESA regime is not so acceptable and is attracting endless
criticism.



The principal will always be the same, changing the medical assessment to
make it almost impossible to qualify is where the problem lies, the ESA
regime would not survive in its present form due to the amount of
complaints
and appeals it currently generates.

.




You must visit some really posh areas on your round. FYI I worked in the
public sector for 10 years and saw far more people at their homes than any
benefit officer. People on council estates had nothing of any value, if
they
had it was soon nicked by the skag heads who needed to feed their drugs
habit. You simply could not keep anything of value living on an inner city
council estate, it could actually endanger your life if the local druggies
thought you had a few quid tucked away.

And the people I saw with the type of equipment you speak of lived in
sheltered and warden controlled housing and practically house bound so you
would expect them to have some form of entertainment in the home, but
thats
all they had.

Suprised you see the PCA scheme as reasonable and fair. The same staff
at ATOS did the assessments in person - those staff you constantly
complain about, those staff you say aren't qualified. The same staff.
If they are capable of doing one type of assessment, why not another?

Changing the medical assessment presumes that the previous one was not
fit for purpose. Maybe it was - but Labour decided to change it.
Sounds like you visited some very tough council estates - down south
were they?

Martin <><

______________________________________________________
Think of it in terms of motoring laws, if the drink drive legal limit is
lowered, more people will fail. If you reduce the speed limit and add more
gatso cameras and police, more people will end up with points on their
licences, and so on. Its the same with the medical assessment, narrow the
scope of descriptors and increase the points needed to qualify and you end
up failing people that would have easily qualified using the old test. That
does not mean they are fully fit for work, it just means they have failed a
very unfair and biased medical assessment designed to fail people.

Yes down south, areas of the worst social depravation you could possibly
imagine, virtual no go areas for police unless they arrived in the hundreds,
and thats police vehicles, and 3 or 4 of those vehicles are coaches full of
riot coppers. Yes you knew when you were on a fairly rough council estate
when every single block of flats and the immediate area was festooned with
CCTV cameras, and over 200 police vehicles entering to collect one or two
outstanding customers, it is a truely amazing sight to see.

 

[mart2306]

Suprised you see the PCA scheme as reasonable and fair. The same staff
at ATOS did the assessments in person - those staff you constantly
complain about, those staff you say aren't qualified. The same staff.
If they are capable of doing one type of assessment, why not another?

Changing the medical assessment presumes that the previous one was not
fit for purpose. Maybe it was - but Labour decided to change it.
Sounds like you visited some very tough council estates - down south
were they?

Martin  <><

______________________________________________________
Think of it in terms of motoring laws, if the drink drive legal limit is
lowered, more people will fail. If you reduce the speed limit and add more
gatso cameras and police, more people will end up with points on their
licences, and so on. Its the same with the medical assessment, narrow the
scope of descriptors and increase the points needed to qualify and you end
up failing people that would have easily qualified using the old test. That
does not mean they are fully fit for work, it just means they have faileda
very unfair and biased medical assessment designed to fail people.

Yes down south, areas of the worst social depravation you could possibly
imagine, virtual no go areas for police unless they arrived in the hundreds,
and thats police vehicles, and 3 or 4 of those vehicles are coaches full of
riot coppers. Yes you knew when you were on a fairly rough council estate
when every single block of flats and the immediate area was festooned with
CCTV cameras, and over 200 police vehicles entering to collect one or two
outstanding customers, it is a truely amazing sight to see.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

As regards your first paragraph, I agree totally. If the assessment is
biased to fail plenty, it will fail plenty. Bias it to pass more
people to avoid more paperwork, it will pass more people.
The current system of ESA presumes fitness for some work. Its a purely
arbitary system, like most government systems. Do this, pass. Do that,
fail. Nuances can't be taken into account much, if at all. Even the
old PCA was arbitary - though with different criteria.
Labour brought new scheme in, Con/Lib haven't scrapped it - though
does usually take years to design and bring in a new system, and does
cost a fortune to take that kind of step.
And new credits system will eventually arrive - probably just at the
right time to screw over a bunch of people who are caught up in
computer errors and problems.

Martin <><

 

[mike]

The point is the old PCA regime was generally accepted as reasonable and
fair. The newer ESA regime is not so acceptable and is attracting endless
criticism.



The principal will always be the same, changing the medical assessment to
make it almost impossible to qualify is where the problem lies, the ESA
regime would not survive in its present form due to the amount of
complaints
and appeals it currently generates.

I've heard the same complaint about ESA med boards as every other though
the % failing seems higher. The principal of the DWP DM overruling the
GP etc based on their own examination is the key one and that's been
going on for a long long time.

You must visit some really posh areas on your round. FYI I worked in the
public sector for 10 years and saw far more people at their homes than any
benefit officer. People on council estates had nothing of any value, if
they
had it was soon nicked by the skag heads who needed to feed their drugs
habit. You simply could not keep anything of value living on an inner city
council estate, it could actually endanger your life if the local druggies
thought you had a few quid tucked away.

And the people I saw with the type of equipment you speak of lived in
sheltered and warden controlled housing and practically house bound so you
would expect them to have some form of entertainment in the home, but thats
all they had.

One of the hsg estates I used to visit was described as one of the most
deprived in the country and qualified for some scheme or other for
regeneration. Some of the others were not much better, including the
one I grew up on.

Mike