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J

John Blaustein

sb,

What a well thought out statement! Thank you for your thoughts. I've
always thought of Quicken as a bargain and don't object one bit to upgrading
every year or so. The numbers as you present them very clearly illustrate
the relationship between the cost of Quicken and how much support Intuit can
offer.

An Intuit employee used to visit this NG every day to help people out with
Quicken. He was so regularly attacked and flamed over issues that he had
nothing to do with that he finally gave up and left. As hard as most of us
tried to keep all discussion civil, the flamers won out and drove away the
only conduit we had to Intuit. What a shame.

John
 
T

The Michael

Why did you place your reply here instead of after my
explanation of the sentence you replied to?


Why in the world did you assume I was speaking about only your
reply. I did not in any way refer to you or your response when
I gave my general description of those that I was referring to.
I went to some lengths to idenditfy posters that I did not think
you could possibly include you. Still, somehow, you seem to
want to be so identified. Was I wrong?

You endeavored to speak for a number of other people; my reply
was about those people you endeavored to speak for.


I explained and expanded on that in my reply to you ... did you
actually read it.


At what point did I say that?


I have no idea what this response means when applied to mine.
Based on what I am reading here, you did not even come close to
reading/understanding what I said. Apparently you assume that
if I disagree with your defense of others, that I am somehow
picking on you for their offense or "not interested in hearing
more on the subject" ... not a word I said suggested that I
would be unwilling to listen to well reasoned, well supported
discourse on the subject.


Sorry you took the position you did; based on your comments, it
is not related to what I actually said/meant. Seems like you
want to make statements, but can't stand any disagreement. That
is not my doing ... I took your comments as basically well
meaning; you, on the other hand, take disagreement as
unacceptable. I can not think of any good remedy for that.
If I misinterpreted what you were saying YOU WILL HAVE to forgive me. I
will tell you why.

You are known here for not only being very helpful to other members but
as a major whiner against the support whiners. When you admitted <<You
are correct, I have not had much experience with Intuit's Quicken
support. Virtually everything I know, I learned by trial-and-error, and
by reading this group. The closest I come to knowing the specifics of
Intuit support are the transcripts of chat discussions that occasionally
get posted here. >>

.... my eyes did not sort of glaze over... they COMPLETELY GLAZED over.
THEY ARE STILL GLAZED OVER! With all of that history, you had just called
my support comments baloney, asked for transcripts and detailed tabulated
statistics, and my credentials!

In the past I have worked in software development and I am very aware of
support issues. I even agree with many of your positions... but I
believe in this thread you have gone overboard (course how can I tell
with my eyes glazed over and I've also been driven to drink ;)

I find all of this pretty outrageous and in any event, "arguing/
discussing" support issues with someone who has little contact with
Intuit's support is not something I wish to pursue. (Besides my
credentials are not up to snuff anyway.)
 
T

The Michael

sb,

What a well thought out statement! Thank you for your thoughts. I've
always thought of Quicken as a bargain and don't object one bit to
upgrading every year or so. The numbers as you present them very
clearly illustrate the relationship between the cost of Quicken and
how much support Intuit can offer.

An Intuit employee used to visit this NG every day to help people out
with Quicken. He was so regularly attacked and flamed over issues
that he had nothing to do with that he finally gave up and left. As
hard as most of us tried to keep all discussion civil, the flamers won
out and drove away the only conduit we had to Intuit. What a shame.

John
I agree John, but that is not really what this subthread was about... but
then your eyes probably glazed over too and I certainly don't blame you
;)
 
R

Rick Hess

The Michael said:
... my eyes did not sort of glaze over... they COMPLETELY GLAZED over.
THEY ARE STILL GLAZED OVER! With all of that history, you had just called
my support comments baloney, asked for transcripts and detailed tabulated
statistics, and my credentials!

In the past I have worked in software development and I am very aware of
support issues. I even agree with many of your positions... but I
believe in this thread you have gone overboard (course how can I tell
with my eyes glazed over and I've also been driven to drink ;)
Some coffee might put you right.
--


Rick Hess
New Orleans
To reply, eliminate All_Spammers
 
J

John Blaustein

Mike,

Being off-topic never seems to stop anyone here, but I apologize if I
strayed too far off course. <g> I confess to not having read the whole
thread all that closely. The degree of anger, frustration and emotion
expressed here (in this thread, but mostly elsewhere) never ceases to amaze
me. It's just a little software program after all.

Yes, I'm glazed over, well beyond repair by coffee, Rick.

John
 
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R

Rick Hess

John Blaustein said:
Yes, I'm glazed over, well beyond repair by coffee, Rick.
'Twasn't you to whom I was referring, John.

It's Carnival here in New Orleans, yet it appears that imbibing is going on
elsewhere as well.
--


Rick Hess
New Orleans
To reply, eliminate All_Spammers
 
W

William W. Plummer

slb said:
I've been lurking here for quite a while and find incredibly amusing the
mindset of some of the posters.

I've worked for a PC software company. For those of you who don't
understand the software business, do some simple math before you shoot
your mouth off. A good tech support person costs money, $20-60k plus
benefits. If the vendor makes $20 gross profit per unit, they have to
sell 1,000 copies to pay JUST THE SALARY for each low-end tech support
person EACH YEAR.

Tech support doesn't write software. They don't market software. They
answer questions, often stupid questions that could be answered if only
the user opened the help file. We resolved issues that had nothing to do
with our products. The average tech support call at our firm was more
than 4 minutes. That's 15 calls per hour per agent. We had 120+ agents
working 24x7. We had $1.3mm in the call center infrastructure ($200k+
for a phone switch alone) plus salaries, benefits, taxes, rent,
depreciation, insurance, marketing, logistics, legal, electric, and the
list goes on.

Just what do you expect for $30-$50?

Do I think Intuit is a good company to do business with? Not
particularly. But I've come to depend on Quicken and haven't seen a
better alternative, yet. I was happily using Quicken 01 Basic and
received a letter from Intuit saying Checkfree/Quicken Bill Pay would no
longer work after March 1. Was I upset? Damn straight. Change is always
traumatic. However, Intuit sent me a FREE copy of 05 Premier. I
converted -- there are some features I like and others that are a huge
step backward. But I saw enough benefit (Checkfree) to go through the
upgrade process and give up 01.

Also look at other software companies. I've purchased and implemented
large-scale software systems for 30 years. A multi-million dollar
purchase is only the beginning. On top of the purchase price the client
paid 15% per YEAR in maintenance in perpetuity. That bought you
upgrades, patches and support. Now the vendors charge 18-22% (including
the year you buy the product -- $2mm x 20% = $400k per year). Even with
these kind of dollars support can be spotty. And after a certain number
of years support costs increase dramatically if you don't keep up with
the upgrades. Eventually support drops entirely. What do you expect? The
vendor can't support old systems forever at no additional cost.

It always seems to be a small group of people who complain here who
think they are "entitled" to unlimited free support forever for their
$30. Ten years ago that was true for a number of software vendors.
However, they long since went out of business. No wonder Intuit doesn't
respond or care about this news group. Why should they? They sell
millions of copies a year and see 100 complaints on this news group in
the same time frame. Again, do the math. The percentage of complaints
isn't even statistically significant to waste the time and money to try
to respond to someone who's irate. That 4 minute call will last 30
minutes and won't result in a sale.

And when John Pollard, or other moderates try to explain, they get
flamed. Geez. Can't please anybody who feels entitled. This group
exists, not because Intuit doesn't provide support. Intuit provides
support -- you just have to pay for it. This group exists because people
like John and others generously "DONATE" their time to help others.

So flame away folks. But understand, you ain't gonna make a difference
to me or Intuit. The law of large numbers is definitely working against
you. Either learn to live with the situation or select a different
product. And, if you find one that has ALL the functionality of Quicken,
by all means let us know.

sb



John Pollard wrote:

Why did you place your reply here instead of after my
explanation of the sentence you replied to?



Why in the world did you assume I was speaking about only your
reply. I did not in any way refer to you or your response when
I gave my general description of those that I was referring to.
I went to some lengths to idenditfy posters that I did not think
you could possibly include you. Still, somehow, you seem to
want to be so identified. Was I wrong?

You endeavored to speak for a number of other people; my reply
was about those people you endeavored to speak for.



I explained and expanded on that in my reply to you ... did you
actually read it.



At what point did I say that?



I have no idea what this response means when applied to mine.
Based on what I am reading here, you did not even come close to
reading/understanding what I said. Apparently you assume that
if I disagree with your defense of others, that I am somehow
picking on you for their offense or "not interested in hearing
more on the subject" ... not a word I said suggested that I
would be unwilling to listen to well reasoned, well supported
discourse on the subject.



Sorry you took the position you did; based on your comments, it
is not related to what I actually said/meant. Seems like you
want to make statements, but can't stand any disagreement. That
is not my doing ... I took your comments as basically well
meaning; you, on the other hand, take disagreement as
unacceptable. I can not think of any good remedy for that.
Well said! Your rely was objective, on-target, factually correct, and a
well deserved reply to those who feel entitled to free service.

HOWEVER, I did pay $50 to Quicken tech support to resolve a problem.
The result was telling me to start a new database and type in years of
transactions! That's just plain, raw incompetence because a 3 minute
call to CheckFree resolved the problem for free. I was gyped and I have
a right to complain, but I admit that this newsgroup is the wrong place
to vent.
 
J

John Pollard

William said:
Well said! Your rely was objective, on-target, factually
correct,
and a well deserved reply to those who feel entitled to free
service.
HOWEVER, I did pay $50 to Quicken tech support to resolve a
problem.
The result was telling me to start a new database and type in
years of
transactions! That's just plain, raw incompetence because a
3 minute
call to CheckFree resolved the problem for free. I was gyped
and I
have a right to complain, but I admit that this newsgroup is
the
wrong place to vent.
Can you be a bit more specific about how you wound up paying $50
and what date you incurred the cost.

I note at Intuit's support web site that support calls cost a
flat $24.99 and are not billable if the issue is not resolved.

http://www.intuit.com/support/quicken/phone_support.html

Perhaps they have changed their billing and their policy since
your call, and your problem fell under a different polity.
Based on current criteria, I would think you would have some
recourse directly with Intuit.
 
J

John Pollard

The said:
If I misinterpreted what you were saying YOU WILL HAVE to
forgive me.
I will tell you why.

You are known here for not only being very helpful to other
members
but as a major whiner against the support whiners. When you
admitted
<<You are correct, I have not had much experience with
Intuit's
Quicken support. Virtually everything I know, I learned by
trial-and-error, and by reading this group. The closest I
come to
knowing the specifics of Intuit support are the transcripts of
chat
discussions that occasionally get posted here. >>

... my eyes did not sort of glaze over... they COMPLETELY
GLAZED over.
THEY ARE STILL GLAZED OVER! With all of that history,
People make claims here all the time. They say, "I took these
steps and I got these results". Such statements have the
possibility of being verified: there is a claim "I got these
results", and there is the supporting evidence, "I took these
steps". Even if I have never taken those steps myself, I have
the possibility of easily verifying the results, and not just
once, but repeatedly if I feel it necessary. That is, I can
easily convince myself that what is being reported is correct,
that b follows from a.

If you make a claim that all Intuit support calls which do not
result in a solution to the problem are attributed by Intuit to
"corrupt data", how would you expect readers to verify your
claim? Do you expect that I should call Quicken tech support,
pay them $30 - and do it many, many, many times so I can verify
a claim that *you* are making? When people make claims without
providing supporting evidence or solid credentials, it is not
the burden of listeners to spend great amounts of time and money
to verify the claims ... proving a claim is the responsibility
of the claimant.

I was not commenting on the truth of your statements, but on the
fact that you would make them when it was so obvious that you
could not possibly know whether they were true or not. And as
I said later, it doesn't even matter if your claim was true in
this case, it still isn't damning evidence of anything.
you had just
called my support comments baloney, asked for transcripts and
detailed tabulated statistics, and my credentials!
Ahhh, a light dawns. You post under more than one alias. Hard
to keep track of the players without a scorecard. Frankly I
prefer to know who I am speaking to, and I prefer that others
know they are speaking to me.

But you still haven't gotten my comments in their proper
context. You did not supply any verification for your claims;
why do you expect people to believe your claims without
supporting evidence. Five people having a similar experience in
a group of many tens of thousands does not a legitmate statistic
make.
In the past I have worked in software development and I am
very aware
of support issues.
I even agree with many of your positions... but I
believe in this thread you have gone overboard (course how can
I tell
with my eyes glazed over and I've also been driven to drink ;)

I find all of this pretty outrageous and in any event,
"arguing/
discussing" support issues with someone who has little contact
with
Intuit's support is not something I wish to pursue. (Besides
my
credentials are not up to snuff anyway.)
Another poster in this thread does have the credentials. And
puts my comments in the context they were intended.

I have acted in a "tech support" role for software products -
though definintely in a much more informal manner than today's
retail tech-support - that of being the programmer responsible
for the problem the user was having. I do know what it takes to
provide good tech support, I've done it ... but it is *very*
expensive to do and not practical on any large scale (there may
be some extreme cases where the user is willing to pay whatever
it takes, but for products costing $30 to $100, I can't see how
it can be done).

One set of credentials which would have gone a long way to
supporting your comments would have been that you, at one time,
worked at Intuit/Quicken tech support and that it was Intuit
stated policy to always tell users that otherwise unsolvable
problems could be caused by corrupt data (though that still
would not have bolstered any useful point about the quality of
Intuit support).
 
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J

John Blaustein

Rick,

I know that. I was just being chatty. No harm done I assume.

John
 
R

Rick Hess

John Blaustein said:
I know that. I was just being chatty. No harm done I assume.
Of course not. Well, watch the liver, though.
--


Rick Hess
New Orleans
To reply, eliminate All_Spammers
 
T

The Michael

People make claims here all the time. They say, "I took these
steps and I got these results". Such statements have the
possibility of being verified: there is a claim "I got these
results", and there is the supporting evidence, "I took these
steps". Even if I have never taken those steps myself, I have
the possibility of easily verifying the results, and not just
once, but repeatedly if I feel it necessary. That is, I can
easily convince myself that what is being reported is correct,
that b follows from a.

If you make a claim that all Intuit support calls which do not
result in a solution to the problem are attributed by Intuit to
"corrupt data", how would you expect readers to verify your
claim? Do you expect that I should call Quicken tech support,
pay them $30 - and do it many, many, many times so I can verify
a claim that *you* are making? When people make claims without
providing supporting evidence or solid credentials, it is not
the burden of listeners to spend great amounts of time and money
to verify the claims ... proving a claim is the responsibility
of the claimant.

I was not commenting on the truth of your statements, but on the
fact that you would make them when it was so obvious that you
could not possibly know whether they were true or not. And as
I said later, it doesn't even matter if your claim was true in
this case, it still isn't damning evidence of anything.


Ahhh, a light dawns. You post under more than one alias. Hard
to keep track of the players without a scorecard. Frankly I
prefer to know who I am speaking to, and I prefer that others
know they are speaking to me.

But you still haven't gotten my comments in their proper
context. You did not supply any verification for your claims;
why do you expect people to believe your claims without
supporting evidence. Five people having a similar experience in
a group of many tens of thousands does not a legitmate statistic
make.


Another poster in this thread does have the credentials. And
puts my comments in the context they were intended.

I have acted in a "tech support" role for software products -
though definintely in a much more informal manner than today's
retail tech-support - that of being the programmer responsible
for the problem the user was having. I do know what it takes to
provide good tech support, I've done it ... but it is *very*
expensive to do and not practical on any large scale (there may
be some extreme cases where the user is willing to pay whatever
it takes, but for products costing $30 to $100, I can't see how
it can be done).

One set of credentials which would have gone a long way to
supporting your comments would have been that you, at one time,
worked at Intuit/Quicken tech support and that it was Intuit
stated policy to always tell users that otherwise unsolvable
problems could be caused by corrupt data (though that still
would not have bolstered any useful point about the quality of
Intuit support).
John, At this point, it's really pretty much a moot point, doncha think?
 
D

djebens

John said:
djebens wrote:



Not sure exactly what you mean by "new funds", but according to
Intuit, Morningstar does not rank funds in business less than
three years.
Sorry should have been more explicit - by new, I meant new to our
portfolio. I am btw getting price updates on all.
 
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W

William W. Plummer

John said:
Can you be a bit more specific about how you wound up paying $50
and what date you incurred the cost.

I note at Intuit's support web site that support calls cost a
flat $24.99 and are not billable if the issue is not resolved.

http://www.intuit.com/support/quicken/phone_support.html

Perhaps they have changed their billing and their policy since
your call, and your problem fell under a different polity.
Based on current criteria, I would think you would have some
recourse directly with Intuit.
It was on 10/22/2003 Support #14280933 and came to the max, $48.75 .
I asked for a refund after the real problem was fixed by CheckFree, but
they denied the request.
 
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