Outsourcing and accounting - what's your take on this?

Discussion in 'Accounting' started by Crazy Diamond, Feb 19, 2004.

  1. Given that the tech sector has been ravaged by outsourcing and that
    there's talk about doing the same to accounting and finance sectors of
    the market, i'm kinda worried about getting into the field. I'm
    halfway through my CPA courses and i wanna know what kind of
    accounting jobs are more resistant to getting offshored? The only
    accounting job that i can think of that would be hard to get
    outsourced is auditing.
     
    Crazy Diamond, Feb 19, 2004
    #1
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  2. Crazy Diamond

    SA Guest

    On 19 Feb 2004 10:28:34 -0800, (Crazy Diamond)
    wrote:

    >Given that the tech sector has been ravaged by outsourcing and that
    >there's talk about doing the same to accounting and finance sectors of
    >the market, i'm kinda worried about getting into the field. I'm
    >halfway through my CPA courses and i wanna know what kind of
    >accounting jobs are more resistant to getting offshored? The only
    >accounting job that i can think of that would be hard to get
    >outsourced is auditing.



    IMO.. Sooner or later something is going to spring up and bite the
    firms and companies who are taking the chance to outsource. Whether
    its some sort of privacy scandal or lost data, I dont know.. I do know
    that we are asking for trouble when the reason why we are outsourcing
    work to be done is to take advantage of cheap labor and perhaps less
    strict laws and regulations.
     
    SA, Feb 19, 2004
    #2
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  3. Crazy Diamond

    Arnold Guest

    CD,

    Outsourcing accounting and finance is about as unlikely as anything I've
    ever hear of. Good management won't do it. Morons might try.

    Good managers want to know everything that is happening in the company,
    the margins, the collections, the cash flow, the profitability, and on
    and on. Good managers need that information daily, from someone
    convenient, at their beck and call, someone that jumps when called.
    That's not an outside accounting firm with a long list of clients making
    similar demands on their time. If the company is small enough to be run
    by the seat of the pants, it might be ok to outsource certain accounting
    and tax reporting processes, but that's about it. A real business needs
    on-site professional accountants. That will not change. In fact, it's
    becoming more required.

    The consequences of Enron include something called the Sarbanes-Oxley
    act. It is a well intentioned, but terribly designed piece of #%&+*# ,
    excuse me, piece of legislation, designed to burden publicly owned
    companies with bureaucratic silliness beyond belief. The costs in terms
    of man hours is staggering. The financial cost is onerous. Outsourcing
    to an accounting firm is incompatible with the demands of Sarbanes-Oxley
    because the outside firm is supposed to be watching the internal staff.
    Even the outside firm must change its staff to prevent any collusion
    between the two. The internal accounting staff must set up and maintain
    a list of "control" procedures that were never contemplated in
    accounting school, maybe in law school or in the psych ward of the state
    mental hospital, but never in business. Imagine treating every
    employee, officer, director, vendor, and customer as if they were Osama
    bin Laden and you have a whiff of what Sarbanes-Oxley is all about.
    Sarbannes-Oxley refocused business from the ultimate goal of making a
    profit to a preoccupation of complying with volumes of arcane laws that
    at this date not too many truly understand.

    Will outsourcing of accounting and finance be a big trend? Not likely.

    As to the tech sector. Their downfall was self inflicted. In an effort
    to get out from under the thumbs of the tyrants of technobabble, the
    brotherhood of bits and bytes, management has thrown off the chains of
    the technocrats and opened opportunities to those that want to serve
    instead of enslave. International competition put them out of
    business. When there is a recovery, technocrats will have to learn to
    speak English and communicate without condescending to lowly humans.
    If not, they will continue to ask, "Do you want fries with that?"

    Arnold

    Crazy Diamond wrote:

    >Given that the tech sector has been ravaged by outsourcing and that
    >there's talk about doing the same to accounting and finance sectors of
    >the market, i'm kinda worried about getting into the field. I'm
    >halfway through my CPA courses and i wanna know what kind of
    >accounting jobs are more resistant to getting offshored? The only
    >accounting job that i can think of that would be hard to get
    >outsourced is auditing.
    >
    >
     
    Arnold, Feb 19, 2004
    #3
  4. "Arnold" <> wrote in message
    news:V09Zb.644$...
    > CD,
    >
    > Outsourcing accounting and finance is about as unlikely as anything I've
    > ever hear of. Good management won't do it. Morons might try.
    >

    Outsourcing accounting to other countries such as India is indeed happening
    now as you read. That does not mean that companies will no longer have an
    accounting department. The outsourcing of accounting is happening in large,
    national accounting firms, where they have such high volume of clientele.

    Like many in this ng I also ascribe to the dote of "buy cheap, get cheap."

    Jan
     
    Jan in Florida, Feb 19, 2004
    #4
  5. "Crazy Diamond" <> wrote
    > Given that the tech sector has been ravaged by outsourcing and that
    > there's talk about doing the same to accounting and finance sectors of
    > the market, i'm kinda worried about getting into the field. I'm
    > halfway through my CPA courses and i wanna know what kind of
    > accounting jobs are more resistant to getting offshored? The only
    > accounting job that i can think of that would be hard to get
    > outsourced is auditing.



    You're talking about sending client work overseas, right?

    I doubt that will trickle down to the small and mid-size firms. It's just
    never going to happen.

    The "ma & pa" stores, Joe Sixpack, and other individuals and businesses want
    personal attention, and personal service, which means having their
    accountant down the road with all the records and resources to get the job
    done. I have a PFS that needs to be done for a client by next Tuesday, and
    there isn't a time budget to allow me to send it to India, have them prepare
    the PFS, and send it back to me, I review it so I can discuss it with the
    client in a coherent manner, and sign off on it. I might as well do it
    myself.

    Yes, the salary and advancement options are smaller in smaller firms, but
    for many people, that's a more workable prospect than wondering if they work
    for the next AA.




    --
    Snowmen fall from heaven unassembled.
    -------------
    Paul A. Thomas, CPA
    taxman at negia.net
     
    Paul A Thomas, Feb 19, 2004
    #5
  6. I think the jobs most susceptible to movement offshore are the more basic
    accounting jobs, particularly in the financial services industry. (i.e.
    subledger system to GL reconciliations, mutual fund accounting, etc.).


    "Crazy Diamond" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > Given that the tech sector has been ravaged by outsourcing and that
    > there's talk about doing the same to accounting and finance sectors of
    > the market, i'm kinda worried about getting into the field. I'm
    > halfway through my CPA courses and i wanna know what kind of
    > accounting jobs are more resistant to getting offshored? The only
    > accounting job that i can think of that would be hard to get
    > outsourced is auditing.
     
    Manhattaner32, Feb 20, 2004
    #6
  7. Crazy Diamond

    NickKnight Guest

    >Given that the tech sector has been ravaged by outsourcing and that
    >there's talk about doing the same to accounting and finance sectors of
    >the market, i'm kinda worried about getting into the field. I'm
    >halfway through my CPA courses and i wanna know what kind of
    >accounting jobs are more resistant to getting offshored? The only
    >accounting job that i can think of that would be hard to get
    >outsourced is auditing.

    It's already happening. A number of companies you talk to
    are already doing it. It's not just computer customer support
    now that is doing it.
    --------------------------------------------
    "Finally a member of the Jackson family finds
    another young boy to victimize."
    -------------------------Jimmy Fallon on SNL
    referring to Justin
    Timberlake

    To send me e-mail exorcise NO Spam from
    my e-mail address.


     
    NickKnight, Feb 20, 2004
    #7
  8. Crazy Diamond

    NickKnight Guest

    On Thu, 19 Feb 2004 13:28:38 -0700, Arnold <>
    wrote:

    >Outsourcing accounting and finance is about as unlikely as anything I've
    >ever hear of. Good management won't do it. Morons might try.

    Too late. Some of our vendors already do it.

    Especially since some of these vendors are owned by
    coporations in various countries outside the US.


    >Good managers want to know everything that is happening in the company,
    >the margins, the collections, the cash flow, the profitability, and on
    >and on. Good managers need that information daily, from someone
    >convenient, at their beck and call, someone that jumps when called.

    And they can get this information nicely now in many countries.
    ..
    >Will outsourcing of accounting and finance be a big trend? Not likely.

    XXX company in the US is ownded by company yyyy in Germany. If
    company yyyyy in German owns company zzzz in India nothing is
    going to prevent them from funneling the work to company zzzz which
    they already own.



    --------------------------------------------
    "Finally a member of the Jackson family finds
    another young boy to victimize."
    -------------------------Jimmy Fallon on SNL
    referring to Justin
    Timberlake

    To send me e-mail exorcise NO Spam from
    my e-mail address.


     
    NickKnight, Feb 20, 2004
    #8
  9. Crazy Diamond

    beancounter Guest

    For all you folks who thought that accounting was immune from
    offshoring and outsourcing, wake-up and smell the coffee! Finance &
    Accounting BPO is considered on the biggest growth areas within
    outsourcing this year. A significant number of companies, large, mid
    sized and small are doing it/have started doing it.

    The reason why you are not hearing too much about it is due to
    companies not publicizing it, and outsourcing being done in phases -
    low end, low risk tasks get moved first, etc. Look at the number of
    companies in outsourcing, as well as in consulting, that are offering
    finance and accounting BPO. On top of it, most accounting software
    companies are predicting zero to low growth; why is that so,
    especially as the economy turns around and more and more companies are
    spending $$$.

    Good accountants will always find jobs. The rest just need to work
    harder and be able to compete. Or retrain. There will always be
    accountants in companies, because companies cannot take it out
    completely like in the case of IT. This is the impact of global
    business, and we asked for it. Without a global business environment,
    we will not have $30 jeans and $60 DVD players. And without global
    business, US companies cannot continue to show strong growth, and keep
    the folks that are already employed.

    Another aspect - anybody who thinks Sarbanes-Oxley makes it harder to
    outsource better think again. There is this thing called 404 or
    internal controls, and if you read articles, you will learn that
    companies that outsource are seeing transparency, better controls, and
    better reporting. An outsourcer brings better processes, efficiencies
    and best in class methodologies. So it the MORONS who are not doing
    it, but the smart companies that are doing it. Ask GE, Intel,
    Microsoft, McDonald's, JP Morgan, Amex. If these companies were being
    run by morons, they would not be where they are, and you an I would
    not be sitting here and bitching.

    We thought we were the best, but now that countries like China, Russia
    & India are competing, we do not want to compete, but want to
    complain.

    Arnold <> wrote in message news:<V09Zb.644$>...
    > CD,
    >
    > Outsourcing accounting and finance is about as unlikely as anything I've
    > ever hear of. Good management won't do it. Morons might try.
    >
    > Good managers want to know everything that is happening in the company,
    > the margins, the collections, the cash flow, the profitability, and on
    > and on. Good managers need that information daily, from someone
    > convenient, at their beck and call, someone that jumps when called.
    > That's not an outside accounting firm with a long list of clients making
    > similar demands on their time. If the company is small enough to be run
    > by the seat of the pants, it might be ok to outsource certain accounting
    > and tax reporting processes, but that's about it. A real business needs
    > on-site professional accountants. That will not change. In fact, it's
    > becoming more required.
    >
    > The consequences of Enron include something called the Sarbanes-Oxley
    > act. It is a well intentioned, but terribly designed piece of #%&+*# ,
    > excuse me, piece of legislation, designed to burden publicly owned
    > companies with bureaucratic silliness beyond belief. The costs in terms
    > of man hours is staggering. The financial cost is onerous. Outsourcing
    > to an accounting firm is incompatible with the demands of Sarbanes-Oxley
    > because the outside firm is supposed to be watching the internal staff.
    > Even the outside firm must change its staff to prevent any collusion
    > between the two. The internal accounting staff must set up and maintain
    > a list of "control" procedures that were never contemplated in
    > accounting school, maybe in law school or in the psych ward of the state
    > mental hospital, but never in business. Imagine treating every
    > employee, officer, director, vendor, and customer as if they were Osama
    > bin Laden and you have a whiff of what Sarbanes-Oxley is all about.
    > Sarbannes-Oxley refocused business from the ultimate goal of making a
    > profit to a preoccupation of complying with volumes of arcane laws that
    > at this date not too many truly understand.
    >
    > Will outsourcing of accounting and finance be a big trend? Not likely.
    >
    > As to the tech sector. Their downfall was self inflicted. In an effort
    > to get out from under the thumbs of the tyrants of technobabble, the
    > brotherhood of bits and bytes, management has thrown off the chains of
    > the technocrats and opened opportunities to those that want to serve
    > instead of enslave. International competition put them out of
    > business. When there is a recovery, technocrats will have to learn to
    > speak English and communicate without condescending to lowly humans.
    > If not, they will continue to ask, "Do you want fries with that?"
    >
    > Arnold
    >
    > Crazy Diamond wrote:
    >
    > >Given that the tech sector has been ravaged by outsourcing and that
    > >there's talk about doing the same to accounting and finance sectors of
    > >the market, i'm kinda worried about getting into the field. I'm
    > >halfway through my CPA courses and i wanna know what kind of
    > >accounting jobs are more resistant to getting offshored? The only
    > >accounting job that i can think of that would be hard to get
    > >outsourced is auditing.
    > >
    > >
     
    beancounter, Feb 20, 2004
    #9
  10. Crazy Diamond

    SBT Bill Guest

    The bigger the company the more likely outsourcing. Remember that with the
    current state of the internet answer can be instantious anywhere in the world.
    Keep in mind that major auto companies, telecommunication and oil are all
    international anyway. Putting the accounting department in a low cost area is
    no different from putting the manufacturing department there. Oh yea the
    shipping costs are less of a factor.

    And don't underestimate the training or professionalism of the employee's they
    are good.

    Bill Couture
     
    SBT Bill, Feb 21, 2004
    #10
  11. SBT Bill wrote:

    ....
    >
    > And don't underestimate the training or professionalism of the employee's they
    > are good.


    Like here, some are, some aren't so...

    Anecdotal story--my son works for a large US firm specializing in
    employee pension plans (hows that for nebulous enough?). They have
    begun outsourcing some data entry to India and he was requested to be
    the "team leader" for the initial rollout of the concept. So far, it's
    been a bust from the results side according to him--the error rate is
    exceptionally high and the interfacing to resolve problems is difficult.
    Consequently his team in the US is working overtime to fixup the data
    every night. How it will come out in the end is still indeterminate as
    it's only been a couple of months.
     
    Duane Bozarth, Feb 21, 2004
    #11
  12. Crazy Diamond

    NickKnight Guest

    On 20 Feb 2004 13:16:51 -0800, (beancounter)
    wrote:

    >For all you folks who thought that accounting was immune from
    >offshoring and outsourcing, wake-up and smell the coffee! Finance &
    >Accounting BPO is considered on the biggest growth areas within
    >outsourcing this year. A significant number of companies, large, mid
    >sized and small are doing it/have started doing it.

    There was a chiling item on the news last week, engineering colleges
    are meeting to discuss their future. Their take on this is that all
    engineering jobs could easily be shipped over seas. The only
    engineers that would immune would be civil engineers. Now if this
    can happen to highly educated people like engineers is there any
    profession that is immune?

    Could be the only jobs left in the US are bagging groceries.
    --------------------------------------------
    "Finally a member of the Jackson family finds
    another young boy to victimize."
    -------------------------Jimmy Fallon on SNL
    referring to Justin
    Timberlake

    To send me e-mail exorcise NO Spam from
    my e-mail address.


     
    NickKnight, Feb 23, 2004
    #12
  13. Crazy Diamond

    Guest

    Well, I do understand that Arnold of terminator fame is advocating a
    change which would permit persons born outside the U.S. could become
    President. I guess that is the ultimate outsourcing solution.

    Tippy

    On Mon, 23 Feb 2004 00:33:55 -0500, NickKnight
    <> wrote:

    >On 20 Feb 2004 13:16:51 -0800, (beancounter)
    >wrote:
    >
    >>For all you folks who thought that accounting was immune from
    >>offshoring and outsourcing, wake-up and smell the coffee! Finance &
    >>Accounting BPO is considered on the biggest growth areas within
    >>outsourcing this year. A significant number of companies, large, mid
    >>sized and small are doing it/have started doing it.

    >There was a chiling item on the news last week, engineering colleges
    >are meeting to discuss their future. Their take on this is that all
    >engineering jobs could easily be shipped over seas. The only
    >engineers that would immune would be civil engineers. Now if this
    >can happen to highly educated people like engineers is there any
    >profession that is immune?
    >
    >Could be the only jobs left in the US are bagging groceries.
    >--------------------------------------------
    >"Finally a member of the Jackson family finds
    >another young boy to victimize."
    >-------------------------Jimmy Fallon on SNL
    > referring to Justin
    > Timberlake
    >
    >To send me e-mail exorcise NO Spam from
    >my e-mail address.
    >
    >
     
    , Feb 24, 2004
    #13
  14. <> wrote in message news:...
    >
    > Well, I do understand that Arnold of terminator fame is advocating a
    > change which would permit persons born outside the U.S. could become
    > President. I guess that is the ultimate outsourcing solution.
    >
    > Tippy



    :eek:)

    Jan
     
    Jan in Florida, Feb 24, 2004
    #14
  15. Crazy Diamond

    Ron Todd Guest

    On Tue, 24 Feb 2004 03:04:54 GMT, wrote:

    >
    >Well, I do understand that Arnold of terminator fame is advocating a
    >change which would permit persons born outside the U.S. could become
    >President. I guess that is the ultimate outsourcing solution.


    1. It would requre a U.S. Constitutional amendment.

    2. It ain't going to happen.

    3. Arnold has shown his RINO 'ness and is over.



    Best Regards.

    *****************************************
    Boycott list:

    Belgium, France, Germany, Finland, Sweden, Switzerland, PRC, Iran, Syria,
    Hollywood, San Francisco, Massachusetts, New York City, Sierra Club, ACLU,
    Movies of the first blacklist, Turner, Madonna, S. Crowe, Dixie Chicks, Cher, U2, rapp,
    Trudeau, W.Miller, Disney, ABC news, CBS news, NBC news, CNN, PBS, B&H Photo Video, Heinz
    Foods, Ontario & Quebec provinces,

    Sometimes the only influence you have is to say, "No, I'm not buying."

    For those who are unclear about the situation, California is the Clinton - Davis model for the rest of the United States of America.
     
    Ron Todd, Feb 24, 2004
    #15
  16. Crazy Diamond

    NickKnight Guest

    On Tue, 24 Feb 2004 16:57:44 GMT, Ron Todd
    <> wrote:

    >Heinz
    >Foods

    Guess that means John Kerry too?

    --------------------------------------------
    "Finally a member of the Jackson family finds
    another young boy to victimize."
    -------------------------Jimmy Fallon on SNL
    referring to Justin
    Timberlake

    To send me e-mail exorcise NO Spam from
    my e-mail address.


     
    NickKnight, Feb 24, 2004
    #16
  17. Crazy Diamond

    NickKnight Guest

    On Tue, 24 Feb 2004 16:57:44 GMT, Ron Todd
    <> wrote:

    >3. Arnold has shown his RINO 'ness and is over.

    For those not familiar with this obscurity this
    means "Repilican in Name Only."


    --------------------------------------------
    "Finally a member of the Jackson family finds
    another young boy to victimize."
    -------------------------Jimmy Fallon on SNL
    referring to Justin
    Timberlake

    To send me e-mail exorcise NO Spam from
    my e-mail address.


     
    NickKnight, Feb 24, 2004
    #17
  18. Crazy Diamond

    Ron Todd Guest

    On Tue, 24 Feb 2004 13:32:23 -0500, NickKnight
    <> wrote:

    >On Tue, 24 Feb 2004 16:57:44 GMT, Ron Todd
    ><> wrote:
    >
    >>Heinz
    >>Foods

    >Guess that means John Kerry too?


    Actually, that is the reason.



    Best Regards.

    *****************************************
    Boycott list:

    Belgium, France, Germany, Finland, Sweden, Switzerland, PRC, Iran, Syria,
    Hollywood, San Francisco, Massachusetts, New York City, Sierra Club, ACLU,
    Movies of the first blacklist, Turner, Madonna, S. Crowe, Dixie Chicks, Cher, U2, rapp,
    Trudeau, W.Miller, Disney, ABC news, CBS news, NBC news, CNN, PBS, B&H Photo Video, Heinz
    Foods, Ontario & Quebec provinces,

    Sometimes the only influence you have is to say, "No, I'm not buying."

    For those who are unclear about the situation, California is the Clinton - Davis model for the rest of the United States of America.
     
    Ron Todd, Feb 25, 2004
    #18
  19. Crazy Diamond

    NickKnight Guest

    On Fri, 20 Feb 2004 01:59:00 GMT, "Manhattaner32" <>
    wrote:

    >I think the jobs most susceptible to movement offshore are the more basic
    >accounting jobs, particularly in the financial services industry. (i.e.
    >subledger system to GL reconciliations, mutual fund accounting, etc.).

    if they can move all the engineering jobs except Civil engineers
    offshore is there any field left that can't be moveed offshore?


    --------------------------------------------
    "Finally a member of the Jackson family finds
    another young boy to victimize."
    -------------------------Jimmy Fallon on SNL
    referring to Justin
    Timberlake

    To send me e-mail exorcise NO Spam from
    my e-mail address.


     
    NickKnight, Feb 27, 2004
    #19
  20. NickKnight wrote:
    >

    ....
    > if they can move all the engineering jobs except Civil engineers
    > offshore is there any field left that can't be moveed offshore?


    I don't see why most civil engineering has to be onshore, either,
    actually, any more than other engineering.

    As for a safe field, I'd say barbering...
     
    Duane Bozarth, Feb 27, 2004
    #20
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