Outsourcing and accounting - what's your take on this?

Discussion in 'Accounting' started by Crazy Diamond, Feb 19, 2004.

  1. Crazy Diamond

    NickKnight Guest

    On Fri, 27 Feb 2004 08:46:41 -0600, Duane Bozarth
    <> wrote:

    >As for a safe field, I'd say barbering...

    With products like the Flobee is barbering safe?


    --------------------------------------------
    "Finally a member of the Jackson family finds
    another young boy to victimize."
    -------------------------Jimmy Fallon on SNL
    referring to Justin
    Timberlake

    To send me e-mail exorcise NO Spam from
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    NickKnight, Feb 28, 2004
    #21
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  2. NickKnight wrote:
    >
    > On Fri, 27 Feb 2004 08:46:41 -0600, Duane Bozarth
    > <> wrote:
    >
    > >As for a safe field, I'd say barbering...

    > With products like the Flobee is barbering safe?


    Don't have a clue what a "flobee" is, but I don't think they'll be much
    offshoring of haircutting... :)
     
    Duane Bozarth, Feb 28, 2004
    #22
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  3. Crazy Diamond

    NickKnight Guest

    On Sat, 28 Feb 2004 08:27:17 -0600, Duane Bozarth
    <> wrote:

    >Don't have a clue what a "flobee" is, but I don't think they'll be much
    >offshoring of haircutting... :)

    Flowbee is the thing you use to do the haircuts at home. Maybe soon
    other products will be created including a computer controlled
    system.
    --------------------------------------------
    "Finally a member of the Jackson family finds
    another young boy to victimize."
    -------------------------Jimmy Fallon on SNL
    referring to Justin
    Timberlake

    To send me e-mail exorcise NO Spam from
    my e-mail address.


     
    NickKnight, Feb 28, 2004
    #23
  4. Crazy Diamond

    Ron Todd Guest

    On Wed, 25 Feb 2004 01:33:29 GMT, Ron Todd
    <> wrote:

    >On Tue, 24 Feb 2004 13:32:23 -0500, NickKnight
    ><> wrote:
    >
    >>On Tue, 24 Feb 2004 16:57:44 GMT, Ron Todd
    >><> wrote:
    >>
    >>>Heinz
    >>>Foods

    >>Guess that means John Kerry too?

    >
    >Actually, that is the reason.
    >


    I'm also not too pleased with Mrs. Teresa Simoes-Ferreira Heinz
    Kerry's radical left wing politics.



    Best Regards.

    *****************************************
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    Belgium, France, Germany, Finland, Sweden, Switzerland, PRC, Iran, Syria,
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    Sometimes the only influence you have is to say, "No, I'm not buying."

    For those who are unclear about the situation, California is the Clinton - Davis model for the rest of the United States of America.
     
    Ron Todd, Feb 28, 2004
    #24
  5. NickKnight wrote:
    >
    > On Sat, 28 Feb 2004 08:27:17 -0600, Duane Bozarth
    > <> wrote:
    >
    > >Don't have a clue what a "flobee" is, but I don't think they'll be much
    > >offshoring of haircutting... :)

    > Flowbee is the thing you use to do the haircuts at home. Maybe soon
    > other products will be created including a computer controlled
    > system.


    I assumed as such, but still don't see that it is offshoring the
    job...which was, I thought, the point of the thread. That there's a
    reduced demand is unquestionable, but that's not the same thing.
    Anyway, it <was> a humorous comment only....
     
    Duane Bozarth, Feb 28, 2004
    #25
  6. Crazy Diamond

    NickKnight Guest

    On Sat, 28 Feb 2004 12:53:09 -0600, Duane Bozarth
    <> wrote:

    >NickKnight wrote:
    >>
    >> On Sat, 28 Feb 2004 08:27:17 -0600, Duane Bozarth
    >> <> wrote:
    >>
    >> >Don't have a clue what a "flobee" is, but I don't think they'll be much
    >> >offshoring of haircutting... :)

    >> Flowbee is the thing you use to do the haircuts at home. Maybe soon
    >> other products will be created including a computer controlled
    >> system.

    >
    >I assumed as such, but still don't see that it is offshoring the
    >job...which was, I thought, the point of the thread. That there's a
    >reduced demand is unquestionable, but that's not the same thing.
    >Anyway, it <was> a humorous comment only....

    But the bottom line is the same....the person is unemployed.

    I have to wonder with the current wave of offshoring? Will there
    be any jobs left in the US? Today with computers/fax machines/email/
    Fedex/etc. there could come a day when the US has no jobs left
    doing much of anything.

    As someone in the accouting field accounting is extremely
    susceptable to this current wave.

    I have to wonder is there anything an accountant does
    that can't be done offshore? IMHO we are rapidly heading to
    the point where the answer will be no.


    --------------------------------------------
    "Finally a member of the Jackson family finds
    another young boy to victimize."
    -------------------------Jimmy Fallon on SNL
    referring to Justin
    Timberlake

    To send me e-mail exorcise NO Spam from
    my e-mail address.


     
    NickKnight, Feb 28, 2004
    #26
  7. Crazy Diamond

    Bobster123 Guest

    >From: NickKnight wrote:

    >I have to wonder with the current wave of offshoring? Will there
    >be any jobs left in the US? Today with computers/fax machines/email/
    >Fedex/etc. there could come a day when the US has no jobs left
    >doing much of anything.
    >


    I believe the Internet is also largely the reason this is happening.

    >As someone in the accouting field accounting is extremely
    >susceptable to this current wave.
    >
    >I have to wonder is there anything an accountant does
    >that can't be done offshore? IMHO we are rapidly heading to
    >the point where the answer will be no.


    Auditing is the main thing that comes to mind, although if most of the
    accounting work is being done overseas, I suspect that's where most of the
    auditing will also be done.
     
    Bobster123, Feb 29, 2004
    #27
  8. Crazy Diamond

    stargazer Guest

    They say 2 million jobs are being outsourced overseas? Let's pretend
    all of those jobs are for $60,000 a year? Ok, let's tax that amount
    by 17% (current social security/medicaid rates) that amounts to over
    20 billion dollars a year that is lost to the Social Security System.

    The real number is not known, however I've read that some venture the
    number might rise to 14 million within the next two years. No wonder
    Mr. Greenspan is alarmed, we could be loosing $140 billion a year in
    social security revenue?

    The White House spokesman recently said that outsourcing the economic
    advisor on White House cabinet, who makes $200,000 a year, is the
    "wave of the future, just the beginning"?

    Ok, lets do the math, substitute 2 million jobs times the maximum
    contribution level. Social Security is based on new workers
    supporting older workers. If mass numbers of jobs disappear due to
    free trade, then Social Security could be wiped out?

    I hear a lot of ifs, there had better be an if reversing this course
    if it occurs. Taxing telecommunications is the obvious answer, taxing
    internet sales is long over due (pay tax based on where the sale is
    made, not where the customer is), but is off topic?

    One thing that consumers can do without the action of government is to
    stop using telecommunication systems that help subsidize these
    efforts? Could millions of people canceling their long distance
    service make that kind of impact?

    I want to support regulated free trade. But there are no guarantees,
    and our retirement system is affected by lost jobs. There are also no
    guarantees that those who are paid in foreign countries will stay
    loyal to the companies that hire and train them, they could actually
    take what they know and start their own companies.

    If this is a trend, maybe it's something people ought to think about a
    little deeper. Maybe foreign workers will import American goods (the
    arguement that free trade promotes new jobs and products). Then
    again, what is made in America? So much of what "America" makes is
    made overseas, exactly what kind of argument is that?

    With niche markets, free trade is a wonderful thing. But mass trends
    can have a negative side? I can see where free trade, done right,
    will raise the standard of living for everyone. I can also see how
    free trade could make a few very rich, and almost take the entire
    economic system down in the process?

    What do you see? I see Mr. Greenspan "alarmed"?














    (Bobster123) wrote in message news:<>...
    > >From: NickKnight wrote:

    >
    > >I have to wonder with the current wave of offshoring? Will there
    > >be any jobs left in the US? Today with computers/fax machines/email/
    > >Fedex/etc. there could come a day when the US has no jobs left
    > >doing much of anything.
    > >

    >
    > I believe the Internet is also largely the reason this is happening.
    >
    > >As someone in the accouting field accounting is extremely
    > >susceptable to this current wave.
    > >
    > >I have to wonder is there anything an accountant does
    > >that can't be done offshore? IMHO we are rapidly heading to
    > >the point where the answer will be no.

    >
    > Auditing is the main thing that comes to mind, although if most of the
    > accounting work is being done overseas, I suspect that's where most of the
    > auditing will also be done.
     
    stargazer, Feb 29, 2004
    #28
  9. Crazy Diamond

    Ron Todd Guest

    On 29 Feb 2004 07:09:26 -0800, (stargazer)
    wrote:

    ....

    >I hear a lot of ifs, there had better be an if reversing this course
    >if it occurs. Taxing telecommunications is the obvious answer, taxing
    >internet sales is long over due


    .....

    I disagree. I hold to the position that this problem, like all the
    ones we have, was caused by government intervention and further
    government intervention will only make it worse.



    Best Regards.

    *****************************************
    Boycott list:

    Belgium, France, Germany, Finland, Sweden, Switzerland, PRC, Iran, Syria,
    Hollywood, San Francisco, Massachusetts, New York City, Sierra Club, ACLU,
    Movies of the first blacklist, Turner, Madonna, S. Crowe, Dixie Chicks, Cher, U2, rapp,
    Trudeau, W.Miller, Disney, ABC news, CBS news, NBC news, CNN, PBS, B&H Photo Video, Heinz
    Foods, Ontario & Quebec provinces,

    Sometimes the only influence you have is to say, "No, I'm not buying."

    For those who are unclear about the situation, California is the Clinton - Davis model for the rest of the United States of America.
     
    Ron Todd, Feb 29, 2004
    #29
  10. Crazy Diamond

    Chris Luper Guest

    >>I have to wonder with the current wave of offshoring? Will there
    >>be any jobs left in the US? Today with computers/fax machines/email/
    >>Fedex/etc. there could come a day when the US has no jobs left
    >>doing much of anything.


    Corporate Tax, Partnerships, Complex Individual Returns.

    I can't imagine a corporate executive of any decent sized company being
    comfortable with having his return prepared overseas.
     
    Chris Luper, Mar 2, 2004
    #30
  11. Crazy Diamond

    NickKnight Guest

    On 02 Mar 2004 02:20:05 GMT, ojunk (Chris Luper) wrote:

    >Corporate Tax, Partnerships, Complex Individual Returns.

    And there is no reason any of these can't be done offshore.

    Some of it is already being done offshore.


    >I can't imagine a corporate executive of any decent sized company being
    >comfortable with having his return prepared overseas.

    Untill they see how much money they will save.......

    Wake up and smell the coffee.....it's already being done in some
    cases.

    --------------------------------------------
    "Finally a member of the Jackson family finds
    another young boy to victimize."
    -------------------------Jimmy Fallon on SNL
    referring to Justin
    Timberlake

    To send me e-mail exorcise NO Spam from
    my e-mail address.


     
    NickKnight, Mar 2, 2004
    #31
  12. Crazy Diamond

    Mike Guest

    Arnold stated the following concering outsourcing:

    " Outsourcing accounting and finance is about as unlikely as anything
    I've
    ever hear of. Good management won't do it. Morons might try. Good
    managers want to know everything that is happening in the company,
    the margins, the collections, the cash flow, the profitability, and
    on
    and on. Good managers need that information daily, from someone
    convenient, at their beck and call, someone that jumps when called.
    That's not an outside accounting firm with a long list of clients
    making
    similar demands on their time. If the company is small enough to be
    run
    by the seat of the pants, it might be ok to outsource certain
    accounting
    and tax reporting processes, but that's about it. A real business
    needs
    on-site professional accountants. That will not change. In fact,
    it's
    becoming more required."

    Yes, but you are forgetting that good managers and true management
    talent is a very rare quality in business.















    Arnold <> wrote in message news:<V09Zb.644$>...
    > CD,
    >
    > Outsourcing accounting and finance is about as unlikely as anything I've
    > ever hear of. Good management won't do it. Morons might try.
    >
    > Good managers want to know everything that is happening in the company,
    > the margins, the collections, the cash flow, the profitability, and on
    > and on. Good managers need that information daily, from someone
    > convenient, at their beck and call, someone that jumps when called.
    > That's not an outside accounting firm with a long list of clients making
    > similar demands on their time. If the company is small enough to be run
    > by the seat of the pants, it might be ok to outsource certain accounting
    > and tax reporting processes, but that's about it. A real business needs
    > on-site professional accountants. That will not change. In fact, it's
    > becoming more required.
    >
    > The consequences of Enron include something called the Sarbanes-Oxley
    > act. It is a well intentioned, but terribly designed piece of #%&+*# ,
    > excuse me, piece of legislation, designed to burden publicly owned
    > companies with bureaucratic silliness beyond belief. The costs in terms
    > of man hours is staggering. The financial cost is onerous. Outsourcing
    > to an accounting firm is incompatible with the demands of Sarbanes-Oxley
    > because the outside firm is supposed to be watching the internal staff.
    > Even the outside firm must staff tchange its o prevent any collusion
    > between the two. The internal accounting staff must set up and maintain
    > a list of "control" procedures that were never contemplated in
    > accounting school, maybe in law school or in the psych ward of the state
    > mental hospital, but never in business. Imagine treating every
    > employee, officer, director, vendor, and customer as if they were Osama
    > bin Laden and you have a whiff of what Sarbanes-Oxley is all about.
    > Sarbannes-Oxley refocused business from the ultimate goal of making a
    > profit to a preoccupation of complying with volumes of arcane laws that
    > at this date not too many truly understand.
    >
    > Will outsourcing of accounting and finance be a big trend? Not likely.
    >
    > As to the tech sector. Their downfall was self inflicted. In an effort
    > to get out from under the thumbs of the tyrants of technobabble, the
    > brotherhood of bits and bytes, management has thrown off the chains of
    > the technocrats and opened opportunities to those that want to serve
    > instead of enslave. International competition put them out of
    > business. When there is a recovery, technocrats will have to learn to
    > speak English and communicate without condescending to lowly humans.
    > If not, they will continue to ask, "Do you want fries with that?"
    >
    > Arnold
    >
    > Crazy Diamond wrote:
    >
    > >Given that the tech sector has been ravaged by outsourcing and that
    > >there's talk about doing the same to accounting and finance sectors of
    > >the market, i'm kinda worried about getting into the field. I'm
    > >halfway through my CPA courses and i wanna know what kind of
    > >accounting jobs are more resistant to getting offshored? The only
    > >accounting job that i can think of that would be hard to get
    > >outsourced is auditing.
    > >
    > >
     
    Mike, Mar 3, 2004
    #32
  13. Crazy Diamond

    Chris Luper Guest

    >>Corporate Tax, Partnerships, Complex Individual Returns.
    >And there is no reason any of these can't be done offshore.
    >
    >Some of it is already being done offshore.
    >
    >
    >>I can't imagine a corporate executive of any decent sized company being
    >>comfortable with having his return prepared overseas.

    >Untill they see how much money they will save.......
    >
    >Wake up and smell the coffee.....it's already being done in some
    >cases.



    Not many.

    We have clients that range in the 50 million to 200 million in sales range, and
    I know alot of people in financial management in similar type companies, and
    the amount of communication required between the preparers and the company
    precludes this work from being outsourced.

    Plus, financial management at middle market and larger companies generally have
    a very conservative view of their audit and tax situation. There are usually
    cheaper alternatives than Big4, but the comfort level that they have with the
    larger firms is more important than the fees savings in alot of cases. With
    that type of mindset, these people aren't going to be comfortable outsourcing
    this work.

    That is my take from middle market america working with these type companies.
     
    Chris Luper, Mar 3, 2004
    #33
  14. Crazy Diamond

    NickKnight Guest

    On 03 Mar 2004 01:45:56 GMT, ojunk (Chris Luper) wrote:

    >We have clients that range in the 50 million to 200 million in sales range, and
    >I know alot of people in financial management in similar type companies, and
    >the amount of communication required between the preparers and the company
    >precludes this work from being outsourced.

    Ever heard of email? Fax machines? Telephones? That is rapdidly not
    becoming an issue.

    Now you can be down the hall or down the continent.

    >Plus, financial management at middle market and larger companies generally have
    >a very conservative view of their audit and tax situation.

    Until they see how many millions they can save.

    >There are usually
    >cheaper alternatives than Big4, but the comfort level that they have with the
    >larger firms is more important than the fees savings in alot of cases. With
    >that type of mindset, these people aren't going to be comfortable outsourcing
    >this work.

    Until they see how many millions they can save.


    --------------------------------------------
    "Finally a member of the Jackson family finds
    another young boy to victimize."
    -------------------------Jimmy Fallon on SNL
    referring to Justin
    Timberlake

    To send me e-mail exorcise NO Spam from
    my e-mail address.


     
    NickKnight, Mar 3, 2004
    #34
  15. Crazy Diamond

    Chris Luper Guest

    >>We have clients that range in the 50 million to 200 million in sales range,
    >and
    >>I know alot of people in financial management in similar type companies, and
    >>the amount of communication required between the preparers and the company
    >>precludes this work from being outsourced.

    >Ever heard of email? Fax machines? Telephones? That is rapdidly not
    >becoming an issue.
    >
    >Now you can be down the hall or down the continent.


    I am not talking about means of communication. I am talking about having the
    detailed knowledge of the company's books, such having the knowledge to do
    forensic accounting when necessary, dealing with the various taxing authorities
    when necessary or being able to revamp the company's fixed asset records, for
    instance.

    Are you going to trust some unknown person from India to get your 382
    limitations properly calculated on your NOLs and to provide you with proper tax
    strategy advice on how to achieve maximum deferral?

    You just aren't going to get that level of service in an outsouring
    relationship, and that is what is prized.

    >Until they see how many millions they can save.


    Cost savings is not as big of an incentive as you think it is. We fight this
    fight against the Big 4, and the implied prestige carries alot of weight with
    the US financial management structure.
     
    Chris Luper, Mar 3, 2004
    #35
  16. Crazy Diamond

    NickKnight Guest

    On 03 Mar 2004 02:15:50 GMT, ojunk (Chris Luper) wrote:


    >I am not talking about means of communication. I am talking about having the
    >detailed knowledge of the company's books, such having the knowledge to do
    >forensic accounting when necessary, dealing with the various taxing authorities
    >when necessary or being able to revamp the company's fixed asset records, for
    >instance.

    And you can access that knowledge in the office next door or in
    hundreds of foreign countries. Every thing on a computer
    and someone who knows what they are doing can access the
    information in Taiwan as easliy as they can in the next cubicle.

    And that person in Taiwan on that computer could easily learn
    more about a company than the CEO who works in the
    company.

    I've worked for too many CEOs who didn't know their ass from
    their elbow. They were living proof of the peter principal.....that
    people rise to their level of incompentence.






    >Are you going to trust some unknown person from India to get your 382
    >limitations properly calculated on your NOLs and to provide you with proper tax
    >strategy advice on how to achieve maximum deferral?

    And if the price is right too many in management would go with the
    person in India. Even with penalties for wrong calculations maybe
    it is still cheaper to go with the people in India?

    >You just aren't going to get that level of service in an outsouring
    >relationship, and that is what is prized.

    Yeah i've noticed that level of service. During tax season
    I can't reach a co-worker down the hall in this CPA practice
    or I can't reach John Smith in India.



    --------------------------------------------
    "Finally a member of the Jackson family finds
    another young boy to victimize."
    -------------------------Jimmy Fallon on SNL
    referring to Justin
    Timberlake

    To send me e-mail exorcise NO Spam from
    my e-mail address.


     
    NickKnight, Mar 3, 2004
    #36
  17. Crazy Diamond

    SBT Bill Guest

    Of course they can move all the good paying jobs overseas. That is the goal of
    the Bush free marketers after all. That is when they aren't lying to start a
    war of revenge and/or graft and personal profit.

    I've been voting Libertarian but this year I'm voting for Kerry. It's a mater
    of servival and self defense.

    Bill Couture
     
    SBT Bill, Mar 5, 2004
    #37
  18. Crazy Diamond

    SBT Bill Guest

    With remote desktop you can be anywhere. One job that will last and grow for a
    brief time is selling outsourcing. Course after a while no one will be able to
    aford it or need it. How much outsourcing do you need to build cardboard
    houses under unused bridges?

    Bill Couture
     
    SBT Bill, Mar 5, 2004
    #38
  19. Crazy Diamond

    SBT Bill Guest

    With picture phones, the internet and the price of gas. Being there is person
    takes on a whole new meaning. With my job 90% of the time I'm working alone on
    my computer. Maybe 1% of the time it helps that I am there and that is rapidly
    declining with the increased speed of the telecomunications system.

    Bill Couture
     
    SBT Bill, Mar 5, 2004
    #39
  20. Crazy Diamond

    SBT Bill Guest

    What about when the companies primary books are in India, the manufacturing
    plant is in Indonesia, and the only thing in the US is the CFO's office and he
    is thinking of moving to Antigua.

    Bill Couture
     
    SBT Bill, Mar 5, 2004
    #40
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