Quickbooks is Garbage: Reason #24


G

Guest

What a load of trash this program is.

After issuing POs for a particular job, these POs cannot be included
in a profit & loss report for the job.

Quickbooks can either show only open POs, only received POs but not
both. Actually for received POs it adds the amounts of the PO *and*
the corresponding bill in a p&l report! What?!

So if you issue a $150 PO for electrical material and a $200 PO for
painting material and you have received only the PO for $150
Quickbooks cannot show that the cost of that job is $350.

If you can do this can you please show us how, taking into
consideration that the job has other costs too that have been applied
to either items or expense accounts, like any job has in this
Universe.

If you are in Construction or any other job cost related business
don't touch Quickbooks not even with a 10-foot 2x4. Complete crap.

--
 
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H

Harry

So if you issue a $150 PO for electrical material and a $200 PO for
painting material and you have received only the PO for $150
Quickbooks cannot show that the cost of that job is $350.
Conceptually this sounds correct.. how can you expense materials you have
not even received yet? Technically they are inventory or supplies (assets)
until they are actually consumed and become expenses. Until you receive them
they are neither! Remember QuickBooks is an accounting package, not a Job
Costing system.

I think someone who despises QuickBooks as much as you obviously do should
consider using something else. Have you looked at A-systems visual
bookkeeper? It is designed around construction and I have heard good things
about it. I have not used it and have no affiliation with them, but it's
worth a look.

http://www.a-systems.net/
 
G

Guest

Harry said:
Conceptually this sounds correct..
Conceptually, anything can be made to sound correct.

Remember QuickBooks is an accounting package, not a Job
Costing system.
!? What are you talking about? Who asked for Quickbooks to be a Job
Costing system? Quickbooks can't even add correctly yet.

There's some numbers in the program and I'd like to print them out in
a reasonable way. What does it matter what I then do with the
information, if I'll send it to my accountant or to my project
manager? What does it matter if I then take the paper and clean the
windows with it? Amazing...

A P&L report in Quickbooks has a filter for "Posted" and a filter for
"Received". What accounting concept dictates that for Received = Yes
the report should *ADD* the total of the PO and the total of the bill
for that PO? And I don't remember now all the specifics of the
confusing results of all the Posted and Received combinations - none
of them having anything in common with reality.

This is still another example of an inadequate, illogical and
erroneous application of report filters and there is no real world
scenario, accounting or otherwise, that could use the result of that
report the way Quickbooks shows it.

[you] should
consider using something else.
Keep your advice to yourself, thanks.

Quickbooks is a poorly designed program developed by people who have
no idea about running a small business and meeting basic accounting
and bookkeeping needs. That's true whether or not I use it.

For businesses that don't have job oriented income centers (as IRS
calls them) this specific issue probably won't make any difference,
but then they should at least stop marketing it to Construction
related businesses.

....
 
F

Fredo Vincentis

Harry said:
[you] should
consider using something else.
Keep your advice to yourself, thanks.
I am fairly new to this newsgroup and I have to admit my experience with
Quickbooks is not terribly extensive, so I cannot yet comment on whether it
is a good application or not. But nonetheless I can tell you that you should
rethink posting in newsgroups if all you can do is attack other posters or
complain about software that none of us have written.Get some manners!
 
J

John

What a load of trash this program is.
Perhaps, but nt for the reason you site.
After issuing POs for a particular job, these POs cannot be included
in a profit & loss report for the job.
And they should not be. A PO is an order to purchase something. A request.
It's not an expense. When the Vendor delivers and you accept the goods and
then enter the purchase on a bill or check, then it's an expense. Or, an
asset if inventory.
Quickbooks can either show only open POs, only received POs but not
both. Actually for received POs it adds the amounts of the PO *and*
the corresponding bill in a p&l report! What?!
So if you issue a $150 PO for electrical material and a $200 PO for
painting material and you have received only the PO for $150
Quickbooks cannot show that the cost of that job is $350.
It isn't an expense or a cost yet. It may be in the future.
If you can do this can you please show us how, taking into
consideration that the job has other costs too that have been applied
to either items or expense accounts, like any job has in this
Universe.
Edit any PO report. Modify | Filters | Received | Either.
 
J

JerryMouse

What a load of trash this program is.

After issuing POs for a particular job, these POs cannot be included
in a profit & loss report for the job.

Quickbooks can either show only open POs, only received POs but not
both. Actually for received POs it adds the amounts of the PO *and*
the corresponding bill in a p&l report! What?!

So if you issue a $150 PO for electrical material and a $200 PO for
painting material and you have received only the PO for $150
Quickbooks cannot show that the cost of that job is $350.
Of course not. Until you issue an invoice for the $200, the stuff is in your
"inventory" and no accounting system has any notion of what you're going to
do with it.

Check your local Community College for a course on introductory bookkeeping.
If you are in Construction or any other job cost related business
don't touch Quickbooks not even with a 10-foot 2x4. Complete crap.
Heh! If you think QB is weird, feel free to try something else that conforms
to generally accepted accounting principles. For example, no
standards-compliant system will let you change - or void - an invoice
already issued.
 
R

rob thirlby

Keep your advice to yourself, thanks.
I am sorely tempted to quote this back at you! One golden rule is think
before you rant.

I am not frightened to admit to who I am either.


--
Rob Thirlby
Treasurer
Leicester Drama Society Ltd
Little Theatre
Dover Street
Leicester
LE1 6PW
personal tel/fax 01509 267295
mobile 07973 217795
(e-mail address removed)
 
S

Steve

The problem seems to be a user has not defined their needs adequately and
has chosen a package (probably on cost) which which does not meet those
needs. Attempting to modify a business to suit a software package is
generally the wrong way to go. So, instead of decrying an ill purchased
package, why not devote your energies to finding one that will suit your
purpose. If such a package cannot be foound, because it no longer fits
into the wider application market due to its limited use in other areas,
you can pay the development costs and have it custom built precisely to
how you want it written. Then you will know where to go to have problems
rectified.

I believe a contract programmer would charge you something like GBP
100/hour and development may take longer than you think and will
definitely cost more than QuickBooks. You pay your money and you take your
choice. If you want cheap software, development costs are recovered from
thousands of users, but it will only work for a general case. I fyou want
your own software, then you might find out how much it relly costs to
develop these packages. (As an example, MS spend around USD 1,000,000,000
on supporting Windows each year).
 
A

Allan Martin

Steve said:
The problem seems to be a user has not defined their needs adequately and
has chosen a package (probably on cost) which which does not meet those needs


Attempting to modify a business to suit a software package is
generally the wrong way to go.
While I agree with most of your post I feel obligated to differ with you on
this one point. Any business that decides to purchase off the shelf
software, be it a low end package like Quickbooks or one that costs $20,000
should do so with the knowledge that they will have to modify their business
procedures. These modifications may be slight but will be required.
Naturally if they have deep pockets the user can have anything custom
programed.




So, instead of decrying an ill purchased
 
G

Guest

I am sorely tempted to quote this back at you! One golden rule is think
before you rant.
I'm not giving advice. I'm expressing an opinion. At least I provide
some kind of reasoning behind it. If you find the problems I mention
as useful features, then go ahead, make an argument for them.
I am not frightened to admit to who I am either.
Good for you. I have no patience for spam. That bothers you too?

....
 
G

Guest

The problem seems to be a user has not defined their needs adequately and
has chosen a package (probably on cost) which which does not meet those
needs.
Not exactly. I am not asking for features that would be reasonably
expected by a different program, either more advanced or with a
different focus and design behind it.

Is reporting an inappropriate use for Quickbooks? There are limits, of
course, but the issue of showing a PO *added* to the bill that
received it fells well within the "what where they thinking??" factor
of the Quickbooks' very poor reporting capabilities.

It is exactly the same issue as aligning numbers to the left or not
being able to sort on fields like PO numbers that start with letters.
This is not a bug, it is an obvious disregard of product quality and
in the issue of received and/or closed POs that I mentioned, it is a
glaring lack of correct logic on the filters that *they* decided to
include in the program.

....
 
G

Guest

And they should not be.
But they are already! Quickbooks shows them already!

Parenthetical: Does that now make it a Job Costing program? Should I
throw it out the window and buy something with the words For
Bookkeeping Purposes Only on the box?

Anyhow, as I said, it already does. If you set the filter of "Posted"
to Either, then QB will show the issued POs for the job you are
reporting on along with all other expenses for that job. Great! Why
does it do that? Should *you* know start complaining that it does
this?

But if any of the issued POs have been received then it will add the
total of the PO *and* the total of the Bill.

If you choose Received to yes then, again you'll see both the PO and
the Bill and nothing else. If you choose Received to No then you'll
see only the open POs with nothing else.

These combinations of the Posted and Received filters have no meaning
whatsoever, they have no real use for any type of scenario as I said
earlier. I am pointing out the severe inadequacy of the program to
show meaningful results with the data that it has even at the most
basic level.

The numbers are in the system, the filters are there but they are not
working as they should. What does it matter now if I need the report
to do taxes or I need the report to show the Project Manager how much
this project will cost by including all the POs that have been sent
out but not double counting the ones that have been received. I don't
care to show him realized costs from an accounting standpoint.

Edit any PO report. Modify | Filters | Received | Either.
If the Received filter is not active then the report shows all
expenses. If the Received filter is active then it shows both the PO
that was received *AND* the bill that received it and nothing else -
the rest of the expenses disappear. I think the Posting filter must
also be on for all this.

If this makes any sense in your Universe, then, you can run your small
business in it and I have no problem whatsoever.

What seems reasonable to me is that for them to market this crap to
Construction and related companies they would at least ask someone
that has run such a company for, let's say, more than a week, whether
or not he would like to see POs *and* the bills that received them
added up in the same report.

Complete crap.

==
 
G

Guest

Of course not. Until you issue an invoice for the $200, the stuff is in your
"inventory" and no accounting system has any notion of what you're going to
do with it.
It doesn't have to. I have applied the POs to a job. Quickbooks will
correctly show the full $350 expense if I choose Posting = Either. But
after I receive the $150 PO and enter a Bill that receives it then the
report above shows (2*150) + 200 = $500. Is this OK with you? What is
the point for the filter working only if no PO has been received yet?

Check your local Community College for a course on introductory bookkeeping.
I'm not an expert in bookkeeping. Is this who Quickbooks is for? But
apparently you don't have any knowledge about programming and how
programs are developed.

The $150 and $200 figures and any bills that received them are already
in the data file. It takes someone with some intelligence, skill,
willingness to offer a useful feature to make the report filters do
the correct additions / subtractions so that result makes sense.
Especially in a trivial issue like this.

What I'm saying is that the Quickbooks people apparently have none of
the above characteristics and what they have implemented, at least in
reporting, is generally useless.

Heh! If you think QB is weird, feel free to try something else that conforms
to generally accepted accounting principles. For example, no
standards-compliant system will let you change - or void - an invoice
already issued.
See? So why is everyone complaining about me asking for a
"non-standard" feature from Quickbooks? It's a simple addition and
subtraction that I'm expecting to see.

I can tell you many more horror stories about Master Builder, the
$10K+ program that Intuit is trying to sell to builders. It certainly
has many more capabilities than Quickbooks, but in terms of usability,
you can't even see what checks are going to be printed unless you jump
through 5 hoops, say a couple of prayers, and it's Tuesday and partly
cloudy with falling barometric pressure.

This problem is in Quickbooks not because they are adhering to any
standard bookkeeping principles but because due to the extremely bad
design of the program they are unable (and unwilling) to offer the
user a few simple ways of reporting on existing data. That's all.

What is the bookkeeping rule that would be broken if a P/L report and
the same P/L report broken down by Job have the exact same totals?
Isn't it reasonable to you that they should? And they used to! But
after some version they didn't any more. And that's not because they
are applying any bookkeeping principles, but because the developers
really don't care about the features of the program and how useful
they are.

We did get cute icons though in the last couple of years, which is a
major advancement in the computer implementation of bookkeeping. I
don't think they even cover this area in the first year course that
you must have taken recently.

===
 
J

JerryMouse

It doesn't have to. I have applied the POs to a job. Quickbooks will
correctly show the full $350 expense if I choose Posting = Either. But
after I receive the $150 PO and enter a Bill that receives it then the
report above shows (2*150) + 200 = $500. Is this OK with you? What is
the point for the filter working only if no PO has been received yet?
I defer to your judgement on how it ought to work. I can tell you it makes
no sense in either the real world or accountancy (which is NOT part of the
real world) to apply a purchase order to a job (what are you buying from a
client?). Why QB allows such is a mystery.

I suspect construction is an alternate universe that does not overlap either
of the two world previously mentioned.
 
J

John

Comments below:

....
Anyhow, as I said, it already does. If you set the filter of "Posted"
to Either, then QB will show the issued POs for the job you are
reporting on along with all other expenses for that job. Great! Why
does it do that? Should *you* know start complaining that it does
this?
I think you're missing the point of Posted. I meant the P&L doesn't show
this data by default.
The Posted filter means "transactions that count for bookeeping" or "things
that go on financial statements." If you set this filter to Either on a
P&L, it's not a P&L anymore. QB lets you start with the P&L and turn it
into something else. Similartly, if you filter for just Expenses on the
report, it's no longer a complete report.
But if any of the issued POs have been received then it will add the
total of the PO *and* the total of the Bill.
Yea, well they happen to have detail lines of the same sign for the same
account, as the PO is a precurser to a Bill.
If you choose Received to yes then, again you'll see both the PO and
the Bill and nothing else. If you choose Received to No then you'll
see only the open POs with nothing else.
That's because they're among the few transactions that appear to use the
received filter.
These combinations of the Posted and Received filters have no meaning
whatsoever, they have no real use for any type of scenario as I said
earlier. I am pointing out the severe inadequacy of the program to
show meaningful results with the data that it has even at the most
basic level.
No on a typical P&L. As you note, there are a lot of extra filters. About
the only thing you should do to a P&L, if you want it to remain a P&L, is
fiddle with the date filter.
The numbers are in the system, the filters are there but they are not
working as they should. What does it matter now if I need the report
to do taxes or I need the report to show the Project Manager how much
this project will cost by including all the POs that have been sent
out but not double counting the ones that have been received. I don't
care to show him realized costs from an accounting standpoint.
Seems like you need a custom report builder.
If the Received filter is not active then the report shows all
expenses. If the Received filter is active then it shows both the PO
that was received *AND* the bill that received it and nothing else -
the rest of the expenses disappear. I think the Posting filter must
also be on for all this.

If this makes any sense in your Universe, then, you can run your small
business in it and I have no problem whatsoever.
It does this as only those transactions seem to use the received filter.
 
A

Angela Thornton

John said:
Perhaps, but nt for the reason you site.


And they should not be. A PO is an order to purchase something. A request.
It's not an expense. When the Vendor delivers and you accept the goods and
then enter the purchase on a bill or check, then it's an expense. Or, an
asset if inventory.



It isn't an expense or a cost yet. It may be in the future.
We don't keep an inventory, so our PO's don't show up as a liability,
offset by an expense, as soon as they're issued.

Angela
 
G

Guest

JerryMouse said:
I defer to your judgement on how it ought to work.
Thank you. Believe me, experience trumps preconceived ideas each and
every time.
I can tell you it makes
no sense in either the real world or accountancy (which is NOT part of the
real world) to apply a purchase order to a job (what are you buying from a
client?). Why QB allows such is a mystery.
Again, that report was not for accounting purposes, although it would
also serve a very useful accounting purpose for our business to know
what a project will cost even at the stage of sending out POs for
materials before they are converted to bills. I wouldn't have to show
the POs as A/P but it would help to see what the Job's expense will
be.

In a construction related business you issue POs to buy materials to
use at a Job site. The materials may or may not be directly
reimbursable, that's another story.

So when I send out a PO for $100 for electrical material to use at
your house, the Smith Residence, I would like to do a P&L report at
that point and show that $100 as an expense of the project, whether or
not I have received the actual bill yet. The PO shows up if I choose
Posting = Either but if some POs have been received then they are
double counted and the Received filter doesn't help at all to
correctly calculate the totals.

==
 
G

Guest

John said:
QB lets you start with the P&L and turn it
into something else. Similartly, if you filter for just Expenses on the
report, it's no longer a complete report.
Fine. Is it now that unthinkable to be able to show
(PO issued - PO received) + Bills + Checks + etc
to calculate total expense of a project, with expenses being realized
or not? Do we need a $10,000+ program to do this?

This is such an easy thing to implement and it is such an important
and basic thing to do that it has to be considered as a glaring
omission. The full 100% of construction related companies at any level
need to see this report, even for remodeling a single room. So if they
allow a P&L to show non Posting transactions why don't they allow to
exclude the received POs to avoid double counting?

You can call it Job Costing, Accounting, Bookkeeping, or whatever else
you want to call it, but it's like having a calculator without the
power function and having to do operations with powers manually.

About
the only thing you should do to a P&L, if you want it to remain a P&L, is
fiddle with the date filter.
We are on a different mindset here. You start with the title of the
report or the preconceived idea of what that title should mean and let
it define what you want to do.

I see it from the standpoint of having data in the file, needing to
see it in simple, straightforward and meaningful ways for a small
business and hitting the wall with the lack of decent reporting in
Quickbooks. They have just dumped the fields in there without any
consideration of what they should offer to the user in terms of
filtering so that the results make some real world sense.

Seems like you need a custom report builder.
OK, we all need a custom report builder. I have two already. What I'm
saying is that the reports that are there are unbelievably inadequate
and some of them plain wrong.

You can show an open bills report, show even the email address and
social security number and the color of the car of the vendor and you
cannot show the Job the bills are for! What do you call that? I call
it incompetence.

So before we talk about custom report builders there are a ton of
things they could do as far as improving the Quickbooks pathetic
reporting in-capabilites with a relatively small amount of resources
(well, more than the $1.20/hr they are paying now) but instead they're
doing cute icons. What do you call that? I call it crap.

==
 
A

Allan Martin

We don't keep an inventory, so our PO's don't show up as a liability,
offset by an expense, as soon as they're issued.

Angela
Even if you did keep an inventory, why would a PO, which is only a request
to purchase an item or service have any effect on the balance sheet or P&L?
Why would you think the issuance of a PO would ever have any accounting
implications?
 
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A

Allan Martin

Fine. Is it now that unthinkable to be able to show
(PO issued - PO received) + Bills + Checks + etc
to calculate total expense of a project, with expenses being realized
or not? Do we need a $10,000+ program to do this?

This is such an easy thing to implement and it is such an important
and basic thing to do that it has to be considered as a glaring
omission.
If you consider this such an easy thing to implement, then please clue us in
as to why you havn't invested in an ODBC program that reads the QB database,
and write your own reports in Crystal Reports? Why must we suffer reading
your complaits every time you conjure up some off the wall reporting
requirement that you feel you must have.



The full 100% of construction related companies at any level
 

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