Quickbooks is Garbage: Reason #24


G

Guest

Allan Martin said:
If you consider this such an easy thing to implement, then please clue us in
as to why you havn't invested in an ODBC program that reads the QB database,
and write your own reports in Crystal Reports?
I have three add-ins that export QB data in real time in Access and I
do some useful reports there. Thank you for the suggestion. What I do
is not the issue, what Quickbooks does is the issue. I'm not asking
what to do to overcome its limitations, I'm pointing them out.

Why must we suffer reading
your complaits
Suffer? I thought you were having a good time here!

==
 
Ad

Advertisements

G

Guest

Allan Martin said:
Why would you think the issuance of a PO would ever have any accounting
implications?
A PO could have accounting implications *and* tax implications.

There is a concept called accrual accounting, which I'm sure you've
heard about, and a substantial number of companies that use one of a
number of different accrual derived methods to do their taxes, at
least in Construction, *should* consider an issued PO as part of the
expected cost of a project even if they have not received a bill for
that material yet.

There is a very large number of items that take a considerable amount
of time to manufacture and therefore even if the cost for that
material is not a payable yet because none of it has been received, an
issued PO and its total *should* be considered by the accountant as
part of the job's cost if it happens, for example, that the tax year
end date is before the bill for that PO is received.

But in any case, why does a user has to justify to you (or anyone else
for that matter) how he/she wants to see their own information? This
is simple stuff, it's based in real world application and it should be
at the top of the priority scale in any financial program, small,
large, medium, or enterprise scale.

Now, don't tell me you "suffered" through this educational and highly
valuable post!
 
H

Harry

A PO could have accounting implications *and* tax implications.

There is a concept called accrual accounting, which I'm sure you've
heard about, and a substantial number of companies that use one of a
Now, don't tell me you "suffered" through this educational and highly
valuable post!
Perhaps you should stick with construction and get out of the education
business. No where in accrual based accounting is the issuance of a PO a
recognized transaction for accounting or tax purposes. You may be referring
to long-term contracts which have specific accounting and tax recognition
rules.

Accrual accounting is matching EXPENSES to the revenues they generated.
There is no tax or generally accepted accounting principle that will allow
for the recognition of an expense based on a simple purchase order.

The definition of an expense is:
Outflows or other using up of assets or incurrences of liabilites (or a
combination of both) during a period from delivering or producing goods,
rendering services, or carrying out other activities that constitute the
entity's ongoing major or central operations.

A simple purchase order does NOT cause an outflow, a using up of assets, or
a liablitiy.

Accural accounting simply says you must recognize the expense in the same
period that you recognize the revenue it generated, irrergardless of when
the expense was actual paid. It does not allow you to assume expenses that
do not exisit.
 
A

Allan Martin

A PO could have accounting implications *and* tax implications.

There is a concept called accrual accounting, which I'm sure you've
heard about, and a substantial number of companies that use one of a
number of different accrual derived methods to do their taxes, at
least in Construction, *should* consider an issued PO as part of the
expected cost of a project even if they have not received a bill for
that material yet.

There is a very large number of items that take a considerable amount
of time to manufacture and therefore even if the cost for that
material is not a payable yet because none of it has been received, an
issued PO and its total *should* be considered by the accountant as
part of the job's cost if it happens, for example, that the tax year
end date is before the bill for that PO is received.

But in any case, why does a user has to justify to you (or anyone else
for that matter) how he/she wants to see their own information? This
is simple stuff, it's based in real world application and it should be
at the top of the priority scale in any financial program, small,
large, medium, or enterprise scale.

Now, don't tell me you "suffered" through this educational and highly
valuable post!
I can't. In over 25 years as a CPA I have never read anything as dumb as the
post above. The truth be told, I laughed my sides off. You very funny man.
 
A

Allan Martin

I have three add-ins that export QB data in real time in Access and I
do some useful reports there. Thank you for the suggestion. What I do
is not the issue, what Quickbooks does is the issue. I'm not asking
what to do to overcome its limitations, I'm pointing them out.



Suffer? I thought you were having a good time here!

It's a collective we. I personally find your remarks amusing. You very funny
man.
 
A

Allan Martin

Harry said:
Perhaps you should stick with construction and get out of the education
business. No where in accrual based accounting is the issuance of a PO a
recognized transaction for accounting or tax purposes. You may be referring
to long-term contracts which have specific accounting and tax recognition
rules.

Accrual accounting is matching EXPENSES to the revenues they generated.
There is no tax or generally accepted accounting principle that will allow
for the recognition of an expense based on a simple purchase order.

The definition of an expense is:
Outflows or other using up of assets or incurrences of liabilites (or a
combination of both) during a period from delivering or producing goods,
rendering services, or carrying out other activities that constitute the
entity's ongoing major or central operations.

A simple purchase order does NOT cause an outflow, a using up of assets, or
a liablitiy.

Accural accounting simply says you must recognize the expense in the same
period that you recognize the revenue it generated, irrergardless of when
the expense was actual paid. It does not allow you to assume expenses that
do not exisit.
Harry, our buddy Nospam should have been a farmer. Farmers know, never to
count your chickens until they hatch.
 
Ad

Advertisements

B

Bob J.

Allan Martin said:
I can't. In over 25 years as a CPA I have never read anything as dumb as the
post above. The truth be told, I laughed my sides off. You very funny man.
I believe the post is intended to be funny - it is a parody of accounting
for the amusement of other posters
 
?

_

I think he was too subtle, previously - some of us took him seriously
and tried to help!
More of us are beginning to get the joke now.
 
G

Guest

Harry said:
Perhaps you should stick with construction and get out of the education
business.
I don't know enough about accounting to assume I can educate anyone.
We have a history of very friendly exchanges with Mr Intuit Man here
and I took it upon myself to teach him a bit about how the real world
does bookkeeping.

No where in accrual based accounting is the issuance of a PO a
recognized transaction for accounting or tax purposes.
Except in areas that you have no knowledge or experience of.

You are stuck at the same mental ditch like many others and you are
refusing to get out. The PO may not be a widely recognized transaction
for any purposes whatsoever, I agree, but **the information in it**
very often can have both accounting *and* tax consequences.

If I know that JobA will cost $X in materials that will be ready in
two months and the tax year ends tomorrow, that $X amount of the
expected or estimated expense has to be incorporated in the
calculation of the tax liability of the company for this tax year.
This happens in Construction but I don't know if it does in any other
industry.

This $X figure is in Quickbooks in the form of an issued PO. The thing
is now that it would be reasonable to apply a filter to show
Non-Posting transactions in a P&L report, as QB is doing now, and
offer a filter to exclude Non-Posting transactions that have already
been received, because the first option results in double-counting of
received POs.

Which accounting principle does that double counting follow? Please
answer this question at least.

This is exactly like the pathetic sorting feature in Quickbooks. If
you sort a list of transactions by, let's say, name, then the
transactions within the same name are listed at random! There is no
internal default sorting field, like in 100% of every application ever
created that can sort records.

A simple purchase order does NOT cause an outflow, a using up of assets, or
a liablitiy.
It may or it may not, depending on the choice of the issuer. I'm not
talking about legal ramifications here, but if I order custom cut
glass from a workshop with a PO and the guy takes 4 weeks to make it
and send me a bill, am I breaking any accounting rule by showing that
expense on a report, even before the bill comes in? Do you think the
god of accounting has a problem with it?

Call it Job Costing if you like labels and are looking for ways to
justify the apparent lack of basic reporting capabilities in
Quickbooks.

They have added emailing to Quickbooks because everyone uses it (and
it was a welcome feature - although the fact that everything goes
through their servers is very suspect) but if I need to show open +
received POs without counting them twice then I am breaking an
accounting principle *unless* I buy a $10,000 program?

You are wrong.
==
 
G

Guest

Allan Martin said:
It's a collective we. I personally find your remarks amusing. You very funny
man.
And I didn't even have to use any smileys :) You're smarting up :)

===
 
G

Guest

More of us are beginning to get the joke now.
Most of you may be getting the joke but none of you has even tried to
justify why Quickbooks shows POs added to the bills that received
them. I know how the code works that produces this result, I don't
need a technical explanation. I'm asking about the purpose of the
result.

If they let the users modify reports and show such nonsense (who
knows, it may be useful to someone at some point), isn't it reasonable
to you that they should allow the users to show reasonable results
too?

If you are satisfied with a program where they have let unskilled and
ignorant people take a bunch of code and dump it behind a substandard
user interface often with no rhyme or reason, then you should go ahead
and say so instead of trying to criticize me who is criticizing a
glaring deficiency of Quickbooks.

I'm not saying that everyone should ask for decent reporting
capabilities. I'm saying that Quickbooks doesn't have any.

===
 
Ad

Advertisements

H

Harry

I don't know enough about accounting to assume I can educate anyone.
We have a history of very friendly exchanges with Mr Intuit Man here
and I took it upon myself to teach him a bit about how the real world
does bookkeeping.
As most accountants and CPAs will attest, most "real world bookkeeping" is
hap hazard at best.Here is where your logic fails: you want an accounting
package to bend to your percieved "real world" rules instead of adhereing to
solid accounting principles.
Except in areas that you have no knowledge or experience of.
It's this notion of "flexible" accounting practices where companies forge
their own rules based on how they perceive their industry to be unique that
has brought down huge companies like Enron, Worldcom, etc.
You are stuck at the same mental ditch like many others and you are
refusing to get out. The PO may not be a widely recognized transaction
for any purposes whatsoever, I agree, but **the information in it**
very often can have both accounting *and* tax consequences.
This $X figure is in Quickbooks in the form of an issued PO. The thing
is now that it would be reasonable to apply a filter to show
Non-Posting transactions in a P&L report, as QB is doing now, and
offer a filter to exclude Non-Posting transactions that have already
been received, because the first option results in double-counting of
received POs.

Which accounting principle does that double counting follow? Please
answer this question at least.
Quickbooks has bugs just like all other software... this is a surprise?
It may or it may not, depending on the choice of the issuer. I'm not
talking about legal ramifications here, but if I order custom cut
glass from a workshop with a PO and the guy takes 4 weeks to make it
and send me a bill, am I breaking any accounting rule by showing that
expense on a report, even before the bill comes in? Do you think the
god of accounting has a problem with it?
I don't know about any accounting god, but the IRS would have a problem with
you expensing it and reducing your taxable income. As would the SEC if you
were a publicy traded company.
Call it Job Costing if you like labels and are looking for ways to
justify the apparent lack of basic reporting capabilities in
Quickbooks.

They have added emailing to Quickbooks because everyone uses it (and
it was a welcome feature - although the fact that everything goes
through their servers is very suspect) but if I need to show open +
received POs without counting them twice then I am breaking an
accounting principle *unless* I buy a $10,000 program?

You are wrong.
==
No, generating a report that shows open & received POs by job does not seem
unreasonable at all. But your original rant said you wanted a "Profit & Loss
Statement" to detail open POs as expensed, a totally different concept. IMHO
 
A

Allan Martin

No, generating a report that shows open & received POs by job does not
seem
unreasonable at all. But your original rant said you wanted a "Profit & Loss
Statement" to detail open POs as expensed, a totally different concept.
IMHO

Harry,

You have to be more forceful when dealing with Trolls. It should not be an
opinion, it is a fact.
 
A

Allan Martin

If they let the users modify reports and show such nonsense (who
knows, it may be useful to someone at some point), isn't it reasonable
to you that they should allow the users to show reasonable results
too?
You are not in touch with reality. We are probably 25 years away from the
day when report writers will have the ability to stop end users from
creating reports that make no sense. I am using the time period of only 25
years because I very optimistic about the future of computing. What I am
less optimistic about is wither or not humans will be prepared, when this
occurs.
 
G

Guest

Harry said:
As most accountants and CPAs will attest, most "real world bookkeeping" is
hap hazard at best.
Yes, it is. And with all those computers at the hands of the
unsuspecting, it can even be very harmful.
Here is where your logic fails: you want an accounting
package to bend to your percieved "real world" rules instead of adhereing to
solid accounting principles.
We said that already. Quickbooks is already a program that has ignored
"solid" accounting principles like the concept of an accounting period
among many others. I'm just expecting it to know what it is adding
together.

Quickbooks has bugs just like all other software... this is a surprise?
This is not a bug. A bug is a wrong result of an otherwise planned
action. If you click on the Print button and the email window opens,
that's a bug. If a total is not correct, that's a bug.

What's happening with Quickbooks is the incomplete and erroneous logic
of the program itself when it offers filters to be used but shows bad
results because no one cares over there if the results of the reports
make any sense at all.

I don't know about any accounting god, but the IRS would have a problem with
you expensing it and reducing your taxable income. As would the SEC if you
were a publicy traded company.
I would suggest to pay a visit to the IRS site and look for the
accepted accounting methods for Construction companies. Most of them
require an estimate of the cost of a Job to help calculate taxable
income in addition to realized expenses after receipt of Vendor bills.

The cost estimate can exist on internal company documents, but if it
has been put on POs already it would be reasonable to expect a
bookkeeping program to be able to show it on a report without counting
twice the POs that have been received.

See? You learn something every day.

But your original rant said you wanted a "Profit & Loss
Statement" to detail open POs as expensed, a totally different concept. IMHO
No, my initial rant said that you can't show (POs issued - POs
received) + bills on a P&L. The initial P&L that Quickbooks starts
with follows the standardized accepted form of a P&L: invoices issued
minus bills received. That's fine.

But when I start applying filters then the results go out of whack. It
doesn't matter to me what the title of the report is and what
"expense" means to you or anyone else. What matters is that I expect
whatever filters I use to show correct results and I'll use them
however I need to. But apparently none of the Quickbooks
non-development non-talent seems to think that this is necessary.

Therefore, Quickbooks is garbage. I thought of qualifying it by adding
"for Construction" but since they have no shame in charging $3,500 for
the Enterprise version (I thought it was only around $1,500 of money
down the drain) that has exactly the same in-capabilities as any other
version, my characterization is too restrained.

==
 
Ad

Advertisements

S

S.M. Serba

I don't know enough about accounting to assume I can educate anyone.
We have a history of very friendly exchanges with Mr Intuit Man here
and I took it upon myself to teach him a bit about how the real world
does bookkeeping.



Except in areas that you have no knowledge or experience of.
No. I disagree. No government can tax you for revenues you have not
yet earned. Unearned revenues are typically posted to a G/L liability
account. They are not taxable until earned or you create an invoice
to offset the prepayment.

Conversely, you cannot deduct from current earnings
expenses you do not yet have (purchase order for goods not yet
delivered, or services not yet rendered). See my comments below
regarding WIP and Accrued Liabilities.
You are stuck at the same mental ditch like many others and you are
refusing to get out. The PO may not be a widely recognized transaction
for any purposes whatsoever, I agree, but **the information in it**
very often can have both accounting *and* tax consequences.

If I know that JobA will cost $X in materials that will be ready in
two months and the tax year ends tomorrow, that $X amount of the
expected or estimated expense has to be incorporated in the
calculation of the tax liability of the company for this tax year.
This happens in Construction but I don't know if it does in any other
industry.
I worked in the construction industry for 5 years as a mid-sized
contractor's accounting manager. I don't think for any reason, ANY
accounting/bookkeeping software should post ANYTHING in either
an estimate or purchase order to the G/L until there is either an invoice
billed or a bill received, for the full or partial balance of the estimate
or
PO. I don't use PO's or estimates in QB enough to know if it does
indeed perform the way the OP states.

That being said, provided your software is not posting unconfirmed amounts
to the G/L, that is the purpose of posting to work-in-progress and accrued
liablilites at the end of each month. I would regularly review costs charged
to
jobs, and progress billings to determine these amounts. I would post to WIP
and AL on the last day of the month, and reverse those amounts on the first
day
of the new month. This would allow for a more accurate representation of
actual costs on the jobs.
This $X figure is in Quickbooks in the form of an issued PO. The thing
is now that it would be reasonable to apply a filter to show
Non-Posting transactions in a P&L report, as QB is doing now, and
offer a filter to exclude Non-Posting transactions that have already
been received, because the first option results in double-counting of
received POs.

Which accounting principle does that double counting follow? Please
answer this question at least.

This is exactly like the pathetic sorting feature in Quickbooks. If
you sort a list of transactions by, let's say, name, then the
transactions within the same name are listed at random! There is no
internal default sorting field, like in 100% of every application ever
created that can sort records.
Correct. This is a formal requisition to a vendor to purchase certain
quantities
of certain goods, for delivery at a certain time. Until the vendor fills the
order
it is not an expense, it is an ANTICIPATED expense. As such, should NOT
be posted to the G/L.
It may or it may not, depending on the choice of the issuer. I'm not
talking about legal ramifications here, but if I order custom cut
glass from a workshop with a PO and the guy takes 4 weeks to make it
and send me a bill, am I breaking any accounting rule by showing that
expense on a report, even before the bill comes in? Do you think the
god of accounting has a problem with it?
Yes. You would not following GAAP rules and your CPA or CA would
probably get VERY angry at you for recognizing an expense before
goods or services are delivered, despite being "ordered". See above
comments regarding WIP and Accrued Liabilities.

<snipped>

Stephanie Serba, AICIA
Partner, Durham Business Outsource
Accounting & Technology
www.dbo.ca
 
A

Allan Martin

..
We said that already. Quickbooks is already a program that has ignored
"solid" accounting principles like the concept of an accounting period
among many others.
Say what? You are actually finding fault in one of the programs greatest
strengths. I've said it before and I will say it again. You are the biggest
disapointment in my life.
 
G

Guest

S.M. Serba said:
No government can tax you for revenues you have not
yet earned.
In the interest of saving a bit of bandwidth and easing up on the
suffering on the rest of the people here, let me just say that I
printed out your post for further study because I'm sure I'll learn
something from it.

However, this unassuming "yet earned" that you mentioned above has
some ways of manifesting itself that have apparently escaped you too.
Please refer to the IRS code for approved accounting methods for
Construction before continuing this argument.

In it, you'll find that depending on the accounting method chosen by a
Company (which can even be a different method for each Job in the same
tax year!) the way a Company declares income can be completely
independent of the "yet earned" you mention.

Noone is talking about posting POs to the G/L and doing all kinds of
things with them as one would do with a Vendor bill.

What we are discussing is the inability of Quickbooks to put sensible
and useful information on a piece of paper. That's all.

If I send out two POs and have received one which accounting principle
am I violating if I want to see their total on a report?

And if you tell me that this is a Job Costing issue and not an
Accounting or Bookkeeping issue, then why the h*ll does Quickbooks
show both POs *and* the bills that received them and adds all of them
up?

This is not a bug, it's faulty program logic and proof that Quickbooks
reporting (ok, I limited it a bit this time) is utter garbage.

==
 
Ad

Advertisements

S

S.M. Serba

In the interest of saving a bit of bandwidth and easing up on the
suffering on the rest of the people here, let me just say that I
printed out your post for further study because I'm sure I'll learn
something from it.

However, this unassuming "yet earned" that you mentioned above has
some ways of manifesting itself that have apparently escaped you too.
Please refer to the IRS code for approved accounting methods for
Construction before continuing this argument.
Sorry. Being a Candian, I am unfamiliar with IRS code. However,
in Ontario, we are not required to declare for tax purposes unearned
income, at least in construction or prepaid services.

Stephanie
 

Ask a Question

Want to reply to this thread or ask your own question?

You'll need to choose a username for the site, which only take a couple of moments. After that, you can post your question and our members will help you out.

Ask a Question

Top