Sick notes and depression


C

Cesc Fabregas

My GP gave me a two week sick note for depression. Then I applied for
ESA. Do I have to keep on asking a new sick note once the old one
expires or do I have to wait for the DWP to ask me for a new one?
 
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R

Robbie

Cesc said:
My GP gave me a two week sick note for depression. Then I applied for
ESA. Do I have to keep on asking a new sick note once the old one
expires or do I have to wait for the DWP to ask me for a new one?
You need to get a sick note as soon as the old one is to expire. If you
don't you run the risk of your ESA stopping. There's always the
possibility that any letter from the DWP could be held up in the massive
postal backlog large parts of the country have at present.
 
N

Niteawk

Cesc Fabregas said:
My GP gave me a two week sick note for depression. Then I applied for
ESA. Do I have to keep on asking a new sick note once the old one
expires or do I have to wait for the DWP to ask me for a new one?
2 weeks FFS, that is no good for someone who is claiming ESA, you need a
cert to cover you for the period pending treatment your GP should have
referred you for. It can take months just to get an appointment to see a
specialist, and you don't know how much time they are going to spend
treating you.

GP's must write a cert out for at least 3 months, otherwise your claim will
keep starting and stopping. Then there is the amount of time it takes the
BDC to process each new cert. Plus you will have to keep making appointments
to see your GP every 5 minutes, this is not acceptable or appropiate in your
circumstances, I am sure your GP will see sense once you explain you can't
live without money with all this is going on.

Lets not forget also, everything shuts down over xmas. Demand a cert for at
least 3 months for this reason alone.
 
M

mart2306

2 weeks FFS, that is no good for someone who is claiming ESA, you need a
cert to cover you for the period pending treatment your GP should have
referred you for. It can take months just to get an appointment to see a
specialist, and you don't know how much time they are going to spend
treating you.

GP's must write a cert out for at least 3 months, otherwise your claim will
keep starting and stopping. Then there is the amount of time it takes the
BDC to process each new cert. Plus you will have to keep making appointments
to see your GP every 5 minutes, this is not acceptable or appropiate in your
circumstances, I am sure your GP will see sense once you explain you can't
live without money with all this is going on.

Lets not forget also, everything shuts down over xmas. Demand a cert for at
least 3 months for this reason alone.
Demanding things of a medical professional?
Wow, how to avoid getting what you want.

Not all doctors are so incompetent that they want to avoid seeing how
someone is coping over time until more specialised help is provided.
How are tablets working? Any problems? Does dosage need increasing or
decreasing? Or try different tablets.
How about condition thats diagnosed? Better? Worse?

Suprisingly the NHS seems to take the view that with the correct
medication, people are better able to manage to live a 'normal' life.
That can include working - some take very little time off work sick.

Martin <><
 
N

Niteawk

Demanding things of a medical professional?
Wow, how to avoid getting what you want.

Martin <><

___________________________________________
Giving a patient, who has to rely on ESA to live, a cert for 2 weeks amounts
to medical negligence and shows gross incompetence IMO. If you have
explained the following, that is.

For starters there is the time it takes to get an appointment to see your
GP, then there is the long and drawn out way the ESA system works.

You have to post certs to the BDC to get payment, this can take Royal Mail
several days. Then you have to wait for the BDC's internal mail system to
send it to what you hope is the right dept, assuming the cert is not lost by
RM or the BDC in the meantime.

There is always the danger that a cert can be lost, usually by the BDC, even
when it has been logged but they are unable to find it so you have to get a
copy, so the whole rigmarole must be repeated.

Once the BDC has your cert, it takes them on average 10 days to process it,
then they issue payment which takes a few more days to clear in your bank
account.

You must realise that GP's probably know nothing about the benefit system so
you really have to inform them or they will keep writing you certs for 2
weeks.
Then again if they have any patients like me, chances are they are budding
benefit experts. ;)

But you really need to explain the above to avoid having to go for long
periods without money to live on. Due to the protracted nature of the
system, I am sure your GP will agree that a cert for 2 weeks is simply not
tenable.
 
M

mart2306

Demanding things of a medical professional?
Wow, how to avoid getting what you want.

Martin  <><

___________________________________________
Giving a patient, who has to rely on ESA to live, a cert for 2 weeks amounts
to medical negligence and shows gross incompetence IMO. If you have
explained the following, that is.

For starters there is the time it takes to get an appointment to see your
GP, then there is the long and drawn out way the ESA system works.

You have to post certs to the BDC to get payment, this can take Royal Mail
several days. Then you have to wait for the BDC's internal mail system to
send it to what you hope is the right dept, assuming the cert is not lostby
RM or the BDC in the meantime.

There is always the danger that a cert can be lost, usually by the BDC, even
when it has been logged but they are unable to find it so you have to geta
copy, so the whole rigmarole must be repeated.

Once the BDC has your cert, it takes them on average 10 days to process it,
then they issue payment which takes a few more days to clear in your bank
account.

You must realise that GP's probably know nothing about the benefit systemso
you really have to inform them or they will keep writing you certs for 2
weeks.
Then again if they have any patients like me, chances are they are budding
benefit experts. ;)

But you really need to explain the above to avoid having to go for long
periods without money to live on. Due to the protracted nature of the
system, I am sure your GP will agree that a cert for 2 weeks is simply not
tenable.
Funny really, I can book a GP appointment for up to 3 weeks after my
current one while I'm at the surgery.
I say 'can I have an appointment with Dr ....... for the 31st and if
they are in and there's a slot free, I get one there and then.

Its called planning. Means people don't have to wait days for an
appointment, they can plan one for when its convenient.
Your surgery will offer the same service of advance planning of
appointments.

As for taking time - yes, it happens. It happens whether you send a
week, a fortnight, a month or 3 months sick note.
The purpose of the doctor isn't however to provide you with sick
notes, their purpose is to try and get you well. Without a sick note,
will you be going back to see them when they want you to?

Martin <><
 
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Niteawk

Funny really, I can book a GP appointment for up to 3 weeks after my
current one while I'm at the surgery.
Martin <><

_________________________________________
We all know you live in cloud cuckoo land and what applies to you does not
apply to the universe and beyond. My GP works part time, it is almost
impossible to get an appointment when I actually need one and the staff at
my medical centre do not allow people to make appointments more than 2 weeks
in advance. So to see my GP takes a minimum of 2 weeks, and can take up to a
month if the 2 week window is full, which it often is.

Another little rule that screws things up for ESA claimants is, the BDC do
not send out renewal letters until the last minute, so any planning in
advance is a waste of time because you have to wait for that letter with the
prepaid return envelope and standard form you have to sign to arrive, if the
renewal letter does not arrive you have to ring the BDC to ask for one, plus
GP's do not or will not issue medical certs in advance. More good reasons
why issuing certs for 2 weeks is a pointless exercise.

The only practical thing you can do is make sure your GP understands that a
cert for 2 weeks is going to create more problems than it solves. Ideally
you need a cert for 6 months so you don't have to constantly worry about
having no money coming in, while the pending sham Atos medical looms with
the inevitable appeal which can take more than a year to get to tribunal.
 
M

mart2306

Funny really, I can book a GP appointment for up to 3 weeks after my
current one while I'm at the surgery.
Martin  <><

_________________________________________
We all know you live in cloud cuckoo land and what applies to you does not
apply to the universe and beyond. My GP works part time, it is almost
impossible to get an appointment when I actually need one and the staff at
my medical centre do not allow people to make appointments more than 2 weeks
in advance. So to see my GP takes a minimum of 2 weeks, and can take up to a
month if the 2 week window is full, which it often is.

Another little rule that screws things up for ESA claimants is, the BDC do
not send out renewal letters until the last minute, so any planning in
advance is a waste of time because you have to wait for that letter with the
prepaid return envelope and standard form you have to sign to arrive, if the
renewal letter does not arrive you have to ring the BDC to ask for one, plus
GP's do not or will not issue medical certs in advance. More good reasons
why issuing certs for 2 weeks is a pointless exercise.

The only practical thing you can do is make sure your GP understands thata
cert for 2 weeks is going to create more problems than it solves. Ideally
you need a cert for 6 months so you don't have to constantly worry about
having no money coming in, while the pending sham Atos medical looms with
the inevitable appeal which can take more than a year to get to tribunal.
Hey, my GP works part time too. Lots of mothers do.
If I need a quick appointment I can normally see one of the other 9
doctors in the surgery, some of whom are also part time. But for
planned visits, I always see my own doctor.

Sounds like your local NHS trust needs to sort out your local surgery.
You have a far worse wait than most people.
Unless my doctor is on holiday, these days I can normally get in
within 2 days. Can usually see someone the same day if willing to
accept another doctor.
Or the local NHS walk in centre in the nearby town - or one near the
university if I'm in that day - will see me with only a short wait
(never waited more than half an hour). And available weekends too.
We don't lack for medical help around here. Maybe you need to get onto
your MP about the shameful standards of medical care locally compared
to other areas of the country.

Gosh, they don't send out renewal letters until last minute. Again,
planning. Your planning.
Maybe the BDC staff are more used to doctors surgeries like mine than
like yours.
As for issuing med certs in advance - why would they? May be a
pointless exercise for you, this issuing for 2 weeks at a time, but is
it pointless for the doctor?
Will you see them regularly if they don't give a reason to come in?

Love your idea of a 6 month sick note. One way to come across to the
doctor as a workshy whinger.

Martin <><
 
N

Niteawk

Love your idea of a 6 month sick note. One way to come across to the
doctor as a workshy whinger.

Martin <><

__________________________________________
So now planning ahead which you keep banging on about means work shy! Isn't
that a medical problem in its own right? My main objective is to avoid
problems with ESA payments, I have no qualms about asking my GP to sign me
off for as long as possible. If you are looking for excuses, blame the
system.The way the system works it is actually responsible for keeping
people on the sick. Once you enter it, thats it, you are stuck with it. If
you sign off the sick to claim JSA, that can result in losing several weeks
ESA money, something your average benefit claimant cannot afford .

And signing on for JSA creates its own problems when you are not fit for
work, technically you are not entitled to JSA unless you can do ALL types of
work, as soon as you say you can't do a job because of your health, you are
sanctioned. And under the new rules, you could be sanctioned for a very long
time. So no matter what happens, I personally can never sign off the sick
because I can't do warehouse type work that involves heavy lifting, loading
and unloading etc. This happens to be the only type of work my local JC has
to offer.

What I find strange about all this is how the DWP are willing to accept a
claim for JSA from a person who has been signed off "unfit for work" when
that is clearly against the law. The DWP is saying they want people to lie
to claim JSA. The government in this country has no shame trying to corrupt
innocent ESA claimants like me, rest assured I will not take part in any DWP
fraud.
 
M

mart2306

Love your idea of a 6 month sick note. One way to come across to the
doctor as a workshy whinger.

Martin  <><

__________________________________________
So now planning ahead which you keep banging on about means work shy! Isn't
that a medical problem in its own right? My main objective is to avoid
problems with ESA payments, I have no qualms about asking my GP to sign me
off for as long as possible. If you are looking for excuses, blame the
system.The way the system works it is actually responsible for keeping
people on the sick. Once you enter it, thats it, you are stuck with it. If
you sign off the sick to claim JSA, that can result in losing several weeks
ESA money, something your average benefit claimant cannot afford .

And signing on for JSA creates its own problems when you are not fit for
work, technically you are not entitled to JSA unless you can do ALL typesof
work, as soon as you say you can't do a job because of your health, you are
sanctioned. And under the new rules, you could be sanctioned for a very long
time. So no matter what happens, I personally can never sign off the sick
because I can't do warehouse type work that involves heavy lifting, loading
and unloading etc. This happens to be the only type of work my local JC has
to offer.

What I find strange about all this is how the DWP are willing to accept a
claim for JSA from a person who has been signed off "unfit for work" when
that is clearly against the law. The DWP is saying they want people to lie
to claim JSA. The government in this country has no shame trying to corrupt
innocent ESA claimants like me, rest assured I will not take part in any DWP
fraud.
LOL.
No, planning ahead means you get the appointment when it suits you,
not having to wait days or weeks.
Yes, we know what your main objective is. For which I pity you.
And even blaming the system for keeping people on the sick? Way to go
on avoiding any responsibility there.....

Like you I can't do heavy lifting, loading or unloading. Not even
allowed to drive a forklift anymore either.
Move up to my area - we have warehouse work but its a tiny fraction of
the jobs on offer. Lot more common to find office work, shop work,
assembly work, cleaning, bar, or security work.
Seems strange that the only work in your area advertised in the
jobcentre is warehouse.

And one thing you aren't is an innocent ESA claimant. If you feel the
DWP is committing fraud, take it up with the courts and the police.
Or is this just a fantasy of yours and no basis in reality?

Martin <><
 
N

Niteawk

And one thing you aren't is an innocent ESA claimant. If you feel the
DWP is committing fraud, take it up with the courts and the police.
Or is this just a fantasy of yours and no basis in reality?

Martin <><

________________________________________
I think we all know by now that the DWP is corrupt operating disability
denial factories. Thousands of claimants who are disabled and terminally
ill, have had months of treatment and surgery and still under the care of
NHS surgeons and GPs are ordered to attend ATOS medical assessments only to
be declared fit for work when clearly they are not. The DWP and ATOS are
contradicting professional medical evidence to facilitate this fraud.

It would be nice if you could take them to court, but the way the system
operates prevents that, you must follow their appeals process. When you have
a strong case against them that could force a change in the law if it went
for judicial review, they award ESA to prevent that from happening. Then
they repeat the same process of denial all over again in the hope that you
will eventually give up.

I have come to expect this deceitful conduct by the DWP as part of the
claims process, so I am not surprised when it happens. You must not give up
if you want to claim ESA. Actually I think they should include that last
sentence on their leaflets. Don't give up or your payments will stop.

Apply, appeal, apply, appeal, apply, appeal, thats how it works. ;)
 
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M

mart2306

And one thing you aren't is an innocent ESA claimant. If you feel the
DWP is committing fraud, take it up with the courts and the police.
Or is this just a fantasy of yours and no basis in reality?

Martin  <><

________________________________________
I think we all know by now that the DWP is corrupt operating disability
denial factories. Thousands of claimants who are disabled and terminally
ill, have had months of treatment and surgery and still under the care of
NHS surgeons and GPs are ordered to attend ATOS medical assessments only to
be declared fit for work when clearly they are not. The DWP and ATOS are
contradicting professional medical evidence to facilitate this fraud.

It would be nice if you could take them to court, but the way the system
operates prevents that, you must follow their appeals process. When you have
a strong case against them that could force a change in the law if it went
for judicial review, they award ESA to prevent that from happening. Then
they repeat the same process of denial all over again in the hope that you
will eventually give up.

I have come to expect this deceitful conduct by the DWP as part of the
claims process, so I am not surprised when it happens. You must not give up
if you want to claim ESA. Actually I think they should include that last
sentence on their leaflets. Don't give up or your payments will stop.

Apply, appeal, apply, appeal, apply, appeal, thats how it works. ;)
I've been dealing with the DWP for years, for myself or family
members.
And haven't had a fraction of the trouble you have. Maybe its because
I'm more lovable. :)

And unlike you, I don't see the DWP as corrupt. Inefficient maybe,
badly organised even - but not corrupt.
Your issue with ATOS seems to be an issue with the legislation and the
company hired to do the assessment.

Martin <><
 
F

firemonkey

I've been dealing with the DWP for years, for myself or family
members.
And haven't had a fraction of the trouble you have. Maybe its because
I'm more lovable. :)

And unlike you, I don't see the DWP as corrupt. Inefficient maybe,
badly organised even - but not corrupt.
Your issue with ATOS seems to be an issue with the legislation and the
company hired to do the assessment.

Martin<><
Putting people in WRAG who have little realistic hope of getting
employment, or worse still on JSA ,to save money, is corrupt in my opinion.
 
M

mart2306

Putting people  in  WRAG who have little realistic hope of getting
employment, or worse still on JSA ,to save money, is corrupt in my opinion.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -
WRAG? Not sure I follow what you are saying. Can you expand on those
initials, the only WRAG I can think of disbanded years ago.

Little hope of getting employment? Thats up to them - there are many
disabled people who do work. Chances of finding a job are slimmer, not
non-existant. Some people can make themselves more employable.
Moving people from one benefit to another, government has been doing
that for years. Used to be moving them from JSA to incapacity benefit
to take them off the books.
Not sure how saving money on the welfare bill is corruption. They
don't get less than unemployed people.

Martin <><
 
N

Niteawk

Your issue with ATOS seems to be an issue with the legislation and the
company hired to do the assessment.

Martin <><

___________________________
What legislation is that? legislation that allows unregistered foreign
nurses to call NHS surgeons and GP's liars, assessing health conditions with
a computer program and asking questions that has nothing to do with having a
real job. Saying you are physically fit if you can pick up a pen etc.

Its only a matter of time before the law catches up like it did in the USA,
Atos was fined $31.7 million and banned from operating in several states.

..
 
M

mart2306

Your issue with ATOS seems to be an issue with the legislation and the
company hired to do the assessment.

Martin  <><

___________________________
What legislation is that? legislation that allows unregistered foreign
nurses to call NHS surgeons and GP's liars, assessing health conditions with
a computer program and asking questions that has nothing to do with having a
real job. Saying you are physically fit if you can pick up a pen etc.

Its only a matter of time before the law catches up like it did in the USA,
Atos was fined $31.7 million and banned from operating in several states.

.
But are they calling them liars? A diagnosis by a GP or consultant and
an assessment form completed by a nurse are two entirely different
things.
As for legislation - that would presumably the legislation that allows
you to be paid ESA.

What need is there for questions involving a real job? To cover all
jobs would take days for each person.
What you end up getting is generalisation - questions that cover
certain general aspects only. Common in our society - used by
government, industry, insurance, police and so on.

If you can pick up a pen you can pick up other items. If you had bad
arthritis in your hands you may be unable to pick up a pen - but would
also have difficulty picking up many other items.
They don't need to run through what you can and cannot pick up.
Generalisation.

As for the law catching up with Atos - for what reason? What crime
have they committed?
The fact you don't agree with them isn't a crime.

Martin <><
 
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N

Niteawk

As for the law catching up with Atos - for what reason? What crime
have they committed?
The fact you don't agree with them isn't a crime.

Martin <><

__________________________________________
You keep making stupid comments, what part of "Atos being fined $31.7
million" do you not understand?.
 
R

Richard Perkin

You keep making stupid comments, what part of "Atos being fined
$31.7 million" do you not understand?.
Err... I believe you may be referring to UnumProvident, now Unum
Group. To the best of my knowledge, Atos Origin has not been fined
such a sum.

The sum of $31.7million was not a fine either, but jury-awarded
damages in a lawsuit from an eye surgeon back in 2003. I understand
the sum was reduced to $5million on appeal. Unum offers disability
insurance - it didn't pay out on legitimate claims.

Kind regards

--
Richard Perkin
To email me, change the <AT> in the address below
richard.perkin<AT>myrealbox.com

It's is not, it isn't ain't, and it's it's, not its, if you mean it
is. If you don't, it's its. Then too, it's hers. It isn't her's.
It isn't our's either. It's ours, and likewise yours and theirs.
-- Oxford University Press, Edpress News
 
F

firemonkey

WRAG? Not sure I follow what you are saying. Can you expand on those
initials, the only WRAG I can think of disbanded years ago.
Work Related Activity Group. Chances of anyone employing you are very
slim if you have a very patchy or non existent CV.
It's one thing to be told you are fit for work by a process designed to
assess as many people as possible as fit for work. It's quite another
for an employer to want to employ you if your CV is patchy/non existent
and you suffer from a long term severe mental illness.



The chances of my getting a job i could hold down without risking
worsening my symptoms,that left me no worse off than i am now
financially,are very slim indeed.

My ability to work is rated as severe ie Able to carry out light
sheltered work in structured, supported setting (e.g. gardening,
sweeping, washing up).
Unfortunately a lot of sheltered work shops have been closed down in
favour of pushing people into full time competitive employment.

For me being able to contribute something part time in a safe/non
competitive/minimally stressful environment would potentially be a good
thing.
It would be even better if i actually got help for the issues/problems
that act as a barrier to my coping in an effective and sustained manner
within a working environment.
Unfortunately giving me such help was deemed superfluous as i was told
that work was not a viable option for someone with my then current
diagnosis.
Nowadays there has been a complete turn around in thinking with it being
held, quite unrealistically, that virtually nothing serves as a barrier
to getting and holding down a job.
Current thinking is that after a quick course of CBT one will be fully
equipped to deal with employment. That might hold true for mental health
problems lying on the milder end of the spectrum but it is not true for
people with chronic, long term, severe mental health problems,
who need a lot more help and support than that to be in a position to
cope with work in an effective and sustained manner.
 
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M

mart2306

As for the law catching up with Atos - for what reason? What crime
have they committed?
The fact you don't agree with them isn't a crime.

Martin  <><

__________________________________________
You keep making stupid comments, what part of "Atos being fined $31.7
million" do you not understand?.
Companies can be fined for many reasons - including not meeting agreed
targets, internal breaches of data, damage, contract breach and so on.
This is a fine in America, the land of the lawsuit. Look up the Stella
Awards sometime for companies that have been fined for rather odd
things.

So, in the UK, what crime has Atos committed? Forget what they've been
fined elsewhere, its irrelevent here. What crime under what law could
they be done for here?

Martin <><
 

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