State Pension Withdrawal


J

judith

Are there any circumstances eg long term hospital or nursing home
attendance which claw back /reduce the state pension?
 
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R

R. Mark Clayton

judith said:
Are there any circumstances eg long term hospital or nursing home
attendance which claw back /reduce the state pension?
It used to claw back after six weeks, but this was increased some years ago.

National Insurance covers hospital treatment and stays, but there is a huge
exclusion for nursing or residential care and they won't pay out until you
are skint and homeless.
 
C

Cynic

National Insurance covers hospital treatment and stays, but there is a huge
exclusion for nursing or residential care and they won't pay out until you
are skint and homeless.
Not so. They will *tell* you that that is the case, but unless you
sign documents agreeing to pay privately (and they typically present
you with the documents and tell you that you *have* to sign in order
to get the needed care), the NHS is fully responsible to pay for all
costs involved in nursing care. Be aware that they (NHS and Social
Services) will attempt to describe the care as "social care" which
must be paid for privately. But unless they can show that the person
is in the care home for the *primary* purpose of playing tiddlywinks,
watching TV and having the company of the other residents, a court is
unlikely to agree that it is social care.

There have been a few recent court cases that have demonstrated
conclusively that nursing care must be paid by the NHS. The
NHS/Social Services are likely to fight it tooth and nail though,
because settling early without going to court will open the floodgates
and cost more than losing a few cases from the minority of people who
were prepared to fight each year. The majority will simply believe
the social worker who points to a guideline figure in a glossy
brochure and tells them that if they have assets worth more than £X
they must pay.

I have been involved (as a friend, IANAL) in such a case over the past
9 months or so. The case is now just beginning to go to litigation,
and the lawyer taking the case has won three similar cases recently
and has said that the other side know full well that they will lose,
but have tremendous legal resources and will try to wear their
opponent down. He also confirmed that massive lies on an
institutional level regarding what the family of an elderly patient
are entitled to are *always* told. In fact, the people telling them
are probably sincere, as they have believed what they were told and
think they are passing on the facts.

The latest gambit they are trying is to conduct yet another assessment
on the patient (my friend's mother). He was told that the assessment
is to determine the amount of nursing care the woman needs and to see
whether she would be able to live at home in a suitably modified
house. He has discovered however that the person who is to carry out
the assessment has the job title, "Social Care Assessor" - so we smell
a very big rat.

My friend has hired a medical practitioner with the relevant
qualifications to carry out a full assessment of his mother, but when
the social services were told of that fact, they replied, "You are
wasting your money because we will not take any notice of an
assessment that has not been carried out by a person employed by us
[social services]." My friend replied, "You might not take any
notice, but if it comes to it I think a judge might."
 
R

R. Mark Clayton

Cynic said:
Not so. They will *tell* you that that is the case, but unless you
sign documents agreeing to pay privately (and they typically present
you with the documents and tell you that you *have* to sign in order
to get the needed care), the NHS is fully responsible to pay for all
costs involved in nursing care. Be aware that they (NHS and Social
Services) will attempt to describe the care as "social care" which
must be paid for privately. But unless they can show that the person
is in the care home for the *primary* purpose of playing tiddlywinks,
watching TV and having the company of the other residents, a court is
unlikely to agree that it is social care.
Dream on. If you sign the home's paperwork to make yourself (as a relative)
primarily liable then you might make yourself liable instead of the
internee.
There have been a few recent court cases that have demonstrated
conclusively that nursing care must be paid by the NHS. The
NHS/Social Services are likely to fight it tooth and nail though,
because settling early without going to court will open the floodgates
and cost more than losing a few cases from the minority of people who
were prepared to fight each year. The majority will simply believe
the social worker who points to a guideline figure in a glossy
brochure and tells them that if they have assets worth more than £X
they must pay.
Go on - this has been tested in teh courts you know...
I have been involved (as a friend, IANAL) in such a case over the past
9 months or so. The case is now just beginning to go to litigation,
and the lawyer taking the case has won three similar cases recently
and has said that the other side know full well that they will lose,
but have tremendous legal resources and will try to wear their
opponent down. He also confirmed that massive lies on an
institutional level regarding what the family of an elderly patient
are entitled to are *always* told. In fact, the people telling them
are probably sincere, as they have believed what they were told and
think they are passing on the facts.
There may be a loophole where the NHS make the referal, but if Social
Services make it you are AFAIAA stuffed.
The latest gambit they are trying is to conduct yet another assessment
on the patient (my friend's mother). He was told that the assessment
is to determine the amount of nursing care the woman needs and to see
whether she would be able to live at home in a suitably modified
house. He has discovered however that the person who is to carry out
the assessment has the job title, "Social Care Assessor" - so we smell
a very big rat.
Rightly, although while she remains at home the bill [mostly] stays with the
LA. The client may have to make a reasonale contribution (roughly
equivalent to the money saved on provisions / care)
My friend has hired a medical practitioner with the relevant
qualifications to carry out a full assessment of his mother, but when
the social services were told of that fact, they replied, "You are
wasting your money because we will not take any notice of an
assessment that has not been carried out by a person employed by us
[social services]." My friend replied, "You might not take any
notice, but if it comes to it I think a judge might."
Maybe not, but there are such things as independeant social workers, I have
a card her from one I met ten years ago.
 
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C

Cynic

Dream on. If you sign the home's paperwork to make yourself (as a relative)
primarily liable then you might make yourself liable instead of the
internee.
As I said, unless anyone is conned into signing, you are not liable.
even then, you could possibly negate the agreement if it was given
under false prestenses.
Go on - this has been tested in teh courts you know...
I am *very* well aware of that. That is why the NHS will lose. The
most recent I am aware of is
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/health/article2917598.ece
though that is not the first (and thus the claim that it is a
"landmark" case is a tad exaggerated)
There may be a loophole where the NHS make the referal, but if Social
Services make it you are AFAIAA stuffed.
No. That is indeed what you will be told, but it is a lie. The
deciding factor is whether the primary reason that the care is
required is due to a medical condition or not. If care is needed due
to dementia or some other medical condition, then the NHS must pay for
the cost of the care.
Rightly, although while she remains at home the bill [mostly] stays with the
LA. The client may have to make a reasonale contribution (roughly
equivalent to the money saved on provisions / care)
The mother is in a nursing home at present. Her condition means that
she could not safely live at home - at least not until the house has
been significantly modified.
My friend has hired a medical practitioner with the relevant
qualifications to carry out a full assessment of his mother, but when
the social services were told of that fact, they replied, "You are
wasting your money because we will not take any notice of an
assessment that has not been carried out by a person employed by us
[social services]." My friend replied, "You might not take any
notice, but if it comes to it I think a judge might."
Maybe not, but there are such things as independeant social workers, I have
a card her from one I met ten years ago.
Except that a medical condition needs to be assessed by a medical
practitioner, not a social worker. A social worker may then well be
in a better position to decide on the most appropriate facillities
required, and how they can best be provided. If the patient is not
medically fit enough to go home and no alternative is offered, then
the patient will have to stay in hospital.
 

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