Trusts - treasure hunt for assets


P

ps56k

My other "Trust" posting
was about some of the beginning setup logistics,
along with the internal sibling issues.

tnx for the starting points concerning the front end.

So, this is my impression looking at the back end.
--
Is all of this merely a MASSIVE connect the dots paper trail,
and there is NO single doc that indicates what's in the Trust -
like a brokerage financial statement ?

And, if you can't find a "Convey asset" or a "bank statement" -
you would have no idea what assets exists "in the Trust" or not.

Just trying to understand all the jumping thru hoops,
the treasure hunt for assets,
and where we stand, and how we know what is where,
and can prove it for anyone asking ?
 
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C

Cam

Is all of this merely a MASSIVE connect the dots paper trail,
and there is NO single doc that indicates what's in the Trust -
like a brokerage financial statement ?
The creator of the trust needs to make a document listing the assets
in the trust. I had a lawyer draw up my Revocable Trust, so he has a
file on it. Not really a big deal. I have my real estate titled into
the trust and bank accounts titled into the trust at two financial
institutions. My lawyer has these three pieces of information in his
file. That is enough bread crumbs for my successor trustee to
follow. To make life little easier I sent my trust lawyer a list of
the financial institutions with the account numbers (they occasionally
change (my bank has changed names twice without my doing anything.).
My successor trustee also has this information. Once I hand wrote in
the account numbers on the paper and other time I typed them in and
printed the document, but never saved a version with the account
numbers. As hokey as it may sound, my successor trustee with probably
end up going through my mail to find all my accounts not in the
trust. A drawback of paperless billing.

As an aside, I hope the idea that an account number is some kind of
secret password is dead. Everyone I've ever written a check to or
made a credit card purchase with has the numbers. Any executive that
allows account numbers to be used as passwords should be fired. Even
passwords are pretty lame for any computer use. Keystroke loggers
figure them out, no problem. Public key encryption is the basis for
solving the password problem and establishing who you are. The beauty
of public key encryption is that you can prove you know the secret,
without telling the secret. You can put lots of bells and whistles on
it as the bad guys put lots of effort into cracking security systems.
Etrade has a token key device that changes the last 6 digits of the
password every minute. Keystroke logger defeated. There needs to be
a lot more of this kind of security. In general you need at least
three completely independent levels of security, but I don't think
anyone has that yet. Public key, biometric, token key, password,
swipe card etc. Any one or two levels of security can be broken, but
three at once makes it much less likely.
 
R

Ron Rosenfeld

My other "Trust" posting
was about some of the beginning setup logistics,
along with the internal sibling issues.

tnx for the starting points concerning the front end.

So, this is my impression looking at the back end.
--
Is all of this merely a MASSIVE connect the dots paper trail,
and there is NO single doc that indicates what's in the Trust -
like a brokerage financial statement ?

And, if you can't find a "Convey asset" or a "bank statement" -
you would have no idea what assets exists "in the Trust" or not.

Just trying to understand all the jumping thru hoops,
the treasure hunt for assets,
and where we stand, and how we know what is where,
and can prove it for anyone asking ?
Pretty much the "gathering of assets" can be a real hidden treasure
hunt, unless the trust was only in effect for a short time, AND the
trustmaker(s) were extraordinarily well organized.

My dad passed away in 1998, and my mom in 2009. There were three
trusts and an estate to deal with. There were assets that should have
been re-registered in a different trust when my dad passed, and
weren't. There were accounts that still had my Dad's SSN. Although
my mother generally kept her stock holdings in certificate form, there
were a few (usually the result of splits) that were also held in book
form by a transfer agent, that we only became aware of when our
accountant was reviewing some 1099's.

Somebody needs to go through all the available documents with a fine
tooth comb. Old tax returns; brokerage statements; 1099's; etc may
all provide some clues for those kinds of assets. If you are also
dealing with widely dispersed real estate holdings, more research may
be required.

It is not a simple task; and my mom was reasonably well organized!
 
P

ps56k

Ron Rosenfeld said:
Pretty much the "gathering of assets" can be a real hidden treasure
hunt, unless the trust was only in effect for a short time, AND the
trustmaker(s) were extraordinarily well organized.

My dad passed away in 1998, and my mom in 2009. There were three
trusts and an estate to deal with. There were assets that should have
been re-registered in a different trust when my dad passed, and
weren't. There were accounts that still had my Dad's SSN. Although
my mother generally kept her stock holdings in certificate form, there
were a few (usually the result of splits) that were also held in book
form by a transfer agent, that we only became aware of when our
accountant was reviewing some 1099's.

Somebody needs to go through all the available documents with a fine
tooth comb. Old tax returns; brokerage statements; 1099's; etc may
all provide some clues for those kinds of assets. If you are also
dealing with widely dispersed real estate holdings, more research may
be required.

It is not a simple task; and my mom was reasonably well organized!
same here - it was (is) a huge treasure hunt....
just finding the way the deeds were written - incorrectly by lawyers...
---
tnx for the feedback -

Wife's parents had passed away in the last several years,
leaving a financial mess with regard to real estate assets.

There are 5 siblings, and an Uncle who is part owner of 2 properties.
It has been a treasure hunt and education in the past 5 years,
trying to find all the things her Dad had setup incorrectly.
A very nice retired lawyer has helped put all the pieces back together.
So - just trying to follow along & learn what should have been done..

1 - Their Trust was setup years ago - but never funded.
2 - Joint (2/3) warehouse investment with Uncle (1/3),
but written as "joint tenancy" vs "tenants in common"
3 - Had to create Trust for estate, then Convey properties.
4 - Since no "inventory" had no real list of "assets".

In summary - not trying to setup anything,
but merely trying to see what steps should have been followed,
and where the problems arise in trying to verify the paper trail.
 
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R

Ron Rosenfeld

same here - it was (is) a huge treasure hunt....
just finding the way the deeds were written - incorrectly by lawyers...
---
tnx for the feedback -

Wife's parents had passed away in the last several years,
leaving a financial mess with regard to real estate assets.

There are 5 siblings, and an Uncle who is part owner of 2 properties.
It has been a treasure hunt and education in the past 5 years,
trying to find all the things her Dad had setup incorrectly.
A very nice retired lawyer has helped put all the pieces back together.
So - just trying to follow along & learn what should have been done..

1 - Their Trust was setup years ago - but never funded.
2 - Joint (2/3) warehouse investment with Uncle (1/3),
but written as "joint tenancy" vs "tenants in common"
3 - Had to create Trust for estate, then Convey properties.
4 - Since no "inventory" had no real list of "assets".

In summary - not trying to setup anything,
but merely trying to see what steps should have been followed,
and where the problems arise in trying to verify the paper trail.
I'm guessing every one of these is different. So you organize things
as best you can before hand; and then get good legal and accounting
advisors afterwards.
 

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